A friend taught me the following, having raised his kids on same:
There are four levels of government – national, state, local, and self. The weaker the fourth level is, the stronger the other three will be.
Govern your self.
Show others how to do the same.
> Govern your self.
Thank you. Everyone does anyway as a matter of fact, so here’s the corollary: “Admit it.”
Bullshit.
Go ahead, Curtis. Explain to everyone here how you don’t govern yourself, nor they themselves. Impress us.
And do let us know when your body moves, motivated by something other than your own mind, such as it is. Short of arrest or slavery, it’s never happened and never will. Is that bullshit too?
If you decide to go long, maybe explain why you do this to yourself. You don’t have enough challenges, is that it? Just so you know, I do.
Klein, you are no Plato, Aristotle, Sextus, etc, etc. Oh, you pretend to be in your convoluted pathetic way. If one were to govern them self, then one would not take handouts at the expense of others to feed their… appetites. I realize that will seem to simple for your great philosophical mind… but there it is. What does virtue have to do with… iniquity?
Words have meaning Kleinstein… go look it up. And try some synonyms.
Don’t you have anything better to do than trolling the web looking for great gotcha moments to bedazzle us with your bullshit and demand that we all “Admit it”?
One can be governed, or one can govern them self. Choosing to be governed does not mean that one chooses to govern them self by being governed.
And that is the end of involving myself in your schizoid adventure.
Forgive me if i’m wrong,but i believe C might be speaking of a higher power,the Hand of God. That’s my thought anyhow,and it works for me.
Any way i can help you with your challenges,JK? it’s what lifes about,and i’m being serious on the offer!
CIII
That’s cool, Chris; in fact I thought of that. But even for deep believers, free will is very fundamental. So even then, we literally govern ourselves. Period…every action of every day, until we’re physically chained. This is basic to atheists, religionists, all thinking people everywhere. Even religionists don’t believe that the Hand of God guides our own actions, right?
Meanwhile, Curtis remains obsessed with me personally. It’s flattering, but I still don’t understand why. I’m sure if he ever digs up anything relevant to the topic, he’ll share it with us. Till then, it figures to be more of the same, unfortunately.
To clarify the important point—contra Curtis, a man CANNOT be governed by anyone else, except by way of PHYSICAL means, which is what this is all about. That’s why we train and aim. Curtis can even try it—take some time and think over and over what you want someone else to do, and see if it happens. Never did and never will. You can OVERPOWER them, but you cannot govern them without that PHYSICAL power. Not ever. Period.
Now go ahead, Curtis. Explain why that’s “bullshit.”
and now we have the fifth level: world government.
Say if again, brother! Halaleullah, and pass the ammunition! Can I hear a big AMEN from the congregation!
Well, ok, AMEN. And to my way of thinking, Liberty is not just Liberty. It’s a state of mind.
Man is like a tiny government, to follow the given example.
At first, when he governs himself, he looks to be completely free.
Man’s ugly nature, just like government’s nature, soon manifests, and the end result is the same- abject tyranny. Slavery.
Man has had several thousand years of ruling himself.
The result is always the same.
While I believe less government is better, I do not think man can “govern himself” unless Christ is first his governor.
I do not think man can “govern himself” unless Christ is first his governor.
====================
How in the hell do people get this way?
I’ve done well at living as best as I can and at no expense to others for more than half a century and no thanks to any imaginary figures.
This country isn’t just broken, it is shattered into 300+million pieces.
“If one were to govern them self, then one would not take handouts at the expense of others to feed their… appetites.”
What kind of claim is that? One can’t govern himself to be a moocher? Where did you learn this? Not only is it logically false, reality quickly dispenses with the claim. Just look around; about 47% of your neighbors do indeed choose to be moochers of one sort or another.
Stop dreaming already, stop making it personal, and get in the game. I know you don’t believe it yet, but I’ll convince you one day: you’re worth it.
AP, you miss the point. He DOES govern himself and that’s all there is to it. He can choose Christ as his “first governor,” he can be led by what he imagines the Devil to be, he can join the mob and be a commie-lib, he can be led by whatever principles he chooses. This is not under dispute.
The point is he DOES govern himself, no matter what he chooses. Nothing has ever moved your body except your own mind, and it’s the same for EVERY other person on Earth. You can be overpowered by someone else; then obviously they’ll move your body. But except for that–and sleepwalking or convulsions–there has never been a moment in your adult life when you took an action that was motivated by anything but your own mind. If that’s wrong, then tell me about the exception.
Jim Klein,
If I understand your 2d pgh properly, you’re making a simultaneously existential/metaphysical point about governance as opposed to rule. What one experiences & subsequently learns from those experiences results in ‘self-governance’, i.e., fire/water/sunshine can hurt/help, & so on. Rule, however, is a very different thing in that it’s something one does to others/has done to one & while containing aspects of what constitutes self-governance as defined previously is primarily an external act.
At least that’s what it seems to me that you’re saying.
Cassandra (of Troy)
Thank you, Cassandra. I’m always less concerned with how something is said that with WHAT is being talked about. So I have no comment on “govern” versus “rule,” though I understand what you’re saying.
The important point is that we each control (or govern, rule, move, whatever) our own actions. This is fundamental and it’s not a “claim” or “belief” or opinion. It’s a FACT and it’s the nature of the object. Anyone can deny it or not believe it or argue it, but that’s the way it is anyway. No functional human adult body has ever taken any action but for the FACT that the mind in that body directed it to do so. This is what it means to say we have free will or volition.
The only exceptions are a) sleepwalking, where our conscious mind is not moving our bodies, b) seizures or convulsions for the same reason, and most relevantly here, c) when something–like another person or gang of people–PHYSICALLY overpowers our ability to move our own bodies.
That’s it. Otherwise, we “govern” ourselves. Sure, you can use other meanings and say that others who declare their intent to overpower us, like the State’s agents, are “governing” us. That’s right in the way it’s meant, but the critical point is that it can ONLY be done through PHYSICAL force. Without that, we can still “govern ourselves” and do as we choose. And most of us, it should be noted, wish to choose decent things to do—take care of ourselves and our families, work to earn our way, interact with others for the benefits of friendship and productive cooperation.
That’s all. The reason the State is evil is because it abridges those abilities and forces us to do other things for other reasons. And worse, the “reasons” are false and the “other things” are non-productive and against the interests of the participants.
I know that’s all obvious, but it’s all I’m saying. It may be obvious, but for some odd reason, almost nobody wants to admit it. Curtis may be the stubborn one here, but his POV is pervasive throughout our society.
He says your life is not about “me, me, me,” but as a matter of FACT, it is. It may not be about you directly, but it IS about whatever YOU choose. That’s the extent of my point, and there is nothing to argue about. You govern yourself in this manner, the whole gaggle of “freedom fighters” ought to acknowledge it outright, and we ought to move forward with it.
Jim Klein/14July12@13:59,
Gotcha 5X5 & roger that. As shocking as it may seem to many, I dearly love such discussions. Must be due to all of the exposure I had to Oriental/primarily Chinese culture in my early years. Made a lasting impression it did, & when joined w/ the metaphysical tendencies of 2 major parts of my ancestry, well, suffice it to say that Kung Fu was one of the high water marks of television to me.
Cassandra (of Troy)
“What does virtue have to do with… iniquity?”
And what do virtue and iniquity, ahem, have to do with whether or not we govern ourselves?
Indeed…if anything. does not their existence prove it? What would those things mean were it not for the FACT that we choose our actions ourselves?
Stop fighting it. You were working for the right thing all along. That’s why I wrote that all that’s left is to “admit it.”
And pay attention, please. It ain’t me that’s Aristotle; it’s that damn hoosier.