People, Places, and Things: A Moral vs. Physical Dilemma, With Its Own Solution


Reader Morgan sends:

Contemplate the following statement:

“Poking holes in people is relatively easy. Poking holes in things, however, can be much more challenging.”

Physically, the above is true and fairly obvious. Morally, however, the reverse is true. Shooting a person takes a tremendous moral leap, while shooting mere inanimate objects is something most of us do regularly, just for fun, and with no moral compunction.

This inverse relationship needs to be explored. As we move forward into the Accelerating Unpleasantness, we need to give some thought to the tactics that this premise suggests, how best to exercise them, and what we need to do now to increase our efficiency should current trends continue.

The “People” Part

In tumultuous times, some Bad People will simply need to be shot.

No getting around it.

However, as both wartime and street-crime experiences show, not everyone is capable of carrying out this action. From my research, it is not always predictable what kind of individual will have the most difficulty taking life. Some are just not cut out for it. Some can tolerate it. Some relish in it – generally not a healthy condition.

Additionally, even for those who can cope with this dark path, doing so is nearly always a significant upping of the ante. In a modern discussion of Freedom versus Oppression, it may be called a “Fort Sumter” level event. It is the ultimate statement of force, with no close second place, and no turning back.

Finally, many times the goals of Freedom can be accomplished with just the warning of more serious action. The figurative and literal “shot across the bow” can alter the course of a ship without spilling blood.

For all of these reasons and more, a serious study of materiel destruction must be undertaken. Today, much that is written about dynamic 4GW focuses primarily on anti personnel action, and rightly so. However, the field of anti-materiel ballistic intervention is only lightly touched on.

Part of this omission is due to the fact that freedom-minded folks have more limited capabilities available for this role. However, a very large part of the gap is due simply to a lack of creative thinking.

Let’s work on the latter.

The “Places” Part

A few minutes’ contemplation will validate the truism that governmental power is largely based on the population’s belief in that power. From the fiat Federal Reserve Note to the alleged omniscience of surveillance systems such as TrapWire – if the government’s tools, symbols, and tactics can be shown to be vulnerable, the resulting loss of credibility can be a devastating blow to the regime’s ability to preserve itself.

Imagine if you will an early Monday morning, somewhere around 2:30 am local time, in any of the Top 100 metropolitan areas in America.

Based on previous reconnaissance, three two-man teams take position. Each shooter has a common-hunting-caliber centerfire rifle.

Their mission?

Fire one 5-round magazine of soft-point hunting ammunition each into the exterior windows of particular offices housing elements of the repressive security apparatus, police their brass, and then return to their quiet civilian lives.

Their objective?

Communicate through shattered glass and aimed rifle fire the vulnerability of those who would extinguish freedom.

Five rounds per shooter, ten rounds per team, and twenty seconds max.

From rifles and ammunition numbering in the millions and billions, respectively.

Executed at a time of day to minimize the chance of collateral damage to the absolute greatest extent.

Welcome to applied 4GW.

The “Things” Part

Both flesh and exterior glass are fragile. Neither provides more than limited resistance to ballistic energy delivery. However, many potential targets resist penetration or damage when one shoots them. To punch respectable holes in these everyday objects and machines, you need more energy, better (and sometimes specialized) bullets, and often increased accuracy. As the distance to your target is increased, these limitations are exacerbated.

In a military context, this function has often been the role of the .50 BMG and handy projectiles such as API and Raufoss rounds. There are also books on Hard Target Interdiction and courses taught along those lines. As a result, there is a healthy level of civilian .50 BMG usage today.

Yet these rifles and their rounds will never be commonplace. No ammo for them at Wally World either.

While all of these more sophisticated resources are fine for what they are, there is also much that the average guy with the run of the mill deer rifle can accomplish. This area of individual target destruction is where we need to do some creative thinking and analysis.

Why?

There just are a lot more deer rifles out there than there are 50 calibers.

Additionally, many modern parts of our domestic governmental infrastructure are not protected, armored, or hardened like military doctrine must address. The average urban government vehicle is just like the salesman’s Chevy, not an armored MRAP. The electrical transformer is protected from being stumbled into, but is not surrounded by AR500 steel plate. The satellite dish on a communication hub just sits there in open view. The street lights and traffic cameras are fragile.

You get the idea.

Organizations and bureaucracies have a great many “things” that they like to accumulate and play with. They often come to rely upon these things to an inordinate degree. The more this is the case, the more impact shooting and smashing that sucker will have.

The examples above and multitudes more would all be damaged, destroyed, or at least suffer a diminished capability if smacked by a solid hit from a .30-06 hunting round. Even better, increase the damage level by replacing the hunting projectile with a heavy match bullet. Or put the Holy Grail in action by using the difficult to find M2 AP bullet and put the issue to rest.

The point is twofold: deny the utility of the object to your opposition, and remind the opposition that if you can hit his stuff, you can hit him too.

Debilitate and Deter.

And not one drop of blood spilled.

So far.

In addition, given plummeting tax revenues and continued economic dislocation at all levels of government, the likelihood that the damaged or destroyed system will be promptly repaired is low, especially for items for which spare parts are limited. Add to the equation the repair crew’s understandable reluctance to dispatch and linger in an area recently perforated by aimed, accurate rifle fire, and you have the tactical gift that keeps on giving.

As one career professional said recently on this topic:

“All enemy communications nodes must die. All antennas must die. You cannot have a networked tactical management system if you do not have a network. Degrade the network, and you degrade your opponents’ ability to hurt you. Period.”

So when we look back to the dilemma of having to fire shots in anger, we now see that the act of shooting something rather than someone is not only more morally acceptable, lower on the Sumter threshold, but also has tremendous merit of its own.

If that’s not a win-win-win for FreeFor, I don’t know what is.

Now start paying close attention to your local AO, take notes on places and items that might be vulnerable to small arms fire, and put them on your range cards.

Dilemma solved.

By the way, that scoped hunting rifle’s not a bad anti-personnel tool, either.

Should the need arise, that is.

24 responses to “People, Places, and Things: A Moral vs. Physical Dilemma, With Its Own Solution

  1. I once read about some chaps in Ireland who used to saw up their rifle barrels and run a drill bit through them.

    I guess they must’ve needed some extra washers or bushings.

    Savage barrels are uber easy to change.

  2. In the days before or only had mgs, that is all the infantry had, and they did some awesome work!

  3. If I may comment, certain high value targets, say advocates of genocide or advocates of the murder of babies are far lower on the “Sumter scale” than others. Family members who have had daughters/Wives/children raped or murdered by “youths” might be a fertile recruiting ground. The book “Unintended Consequences” by John Ross had some ideas along this line.

    Should the need arise, of course..

  4. I seem to recall making very similar statements before, thanks CA for bringing this idea back around.
    Just FYI, I already watch and write and plan…….

  5. Been looking over the neighborhood – Mexifornia, near the 101, about 100 miles N. of LA – from a tactical viewpoint more & more lately. I expect the urban black horde and Latino gangs – in all the major cities – to go at each other first, with the survivors then slaughtering the citified Jews & White Cosmics. Still, quite a lot of bad stuff will come blasting up the highway in fairly short order and I doubt if many Patriots will survive around here. But I’m too lazy to move, so will just wait and see what happens. Won’t be long now.

    • Cassandra (of Troy)

      MajikFireHornet/25Aug12@03:28,

      LaShawn & LocoBoi are by & large city creatures & their mentality/lifestyle/weapons/tactics/vehicles reflect same & this can be used against them. While they may intellectually understand the tactical loneliness of roadways, they’re likely to overestimate their ability to deal w/ opposition & if said opponents have their wits/necessary equipt about them the boyz (& grrlz) fum Da Hood can be efficiently dispatched. The standard protocol for column attack applies, & should prove even more effective on people who’re excessively reliant on civilizational conveniences like readily available food/water/fuel/parts/medical aid. When such are pinned down by accurate fire from skilled & determined opponents, the liquid/edible supplies run low, & they can’t fire up a smoke or doob w/o catching a bullet, things’ll get hinky fast which might result in either a fake/real truce/surrender offer, a breakout retreat under cover fire attempt, or even a ‘berserker’/banzaiesque shock charge.

      Their habitual (& frequently heavy) use of recreational pharmaceuticals/spiritous liquids also benefits defenders for obvious reasons, but an additional one is their belief that such substances impart &/or enhance courage thereby making them better militarily than they actually are & this too is an obvious exploitable weakness. Remember, however, that these people are accustomed to gettin’ down while high & an ever growing number have graduated from Uncle Sugar’s School For Energetic Adventurers, so don’t expect all to be punkasses who’ll do you a favor by turning tail or stupidly getting themselves dead via bravado.

      IMO, success against the above/similar vermin is, in addtn to proper planning/equipt, one’s willingness to do to them as they’d most assuredly do to you (w/o the rapine/similar distractions) but do it first, & w/ ruthless thoroughness. Pity w/ such is a luxury that’ll get one/one’s companions killed & make one’s loved ones the playthings of said creatures. Surviving youngsters may present a problem in that after a certain mental age (& that’s on a per case basis) they’re unlikely to be successfully turned around. Infants-2yrs are usually safe to bring in as their minds are malleable but if such is done, the story of their ‘adoption’ must be kept secret for at least 4 gens & that might be problematic if said ‘adoptees’ differ ‘racially’ from the ‘parents’.

      The future’s possibilities are simply breathtaking, ain’t they.

      Cassandra (of Troy)

      • Well said!

      • Second rolf’s reaction to your comment. Helen was definitely a wimp. When things go in the indicated direction, all sorts of outstanding economic, political, cultural, and racial issues may be resolved. Basically the ZOGlobalists’ plan is to liquidate the Whites (30% of the world’s population in 1900; 2000: 9%; 2100: extinct….Christian Universalists like J.W. Rawls and Ann Barnhardt don’t seem to get this) and Gulag what’s left, so I don’t think we need to exhibit any moral restraints when push comes to shove.

  6. alan w. mullenax

    Pretty big leap for you Peter. A little out of character from my observation. But I know what you’re feeling.

    Totally agree with the post though. Good deduction from the facts. I have always advocated 1 million armed, silent men standing on the mall in Washington. But if this was done nationwide it would force attention.

    It would also bring them down on our asses. I would venture to guess that should anything of the sort happen around my neck of the woods, old Alan W. would be hauled in for questioning. Doesn’t bother me you understand. But this is another one of those things where every swinging Richard gotta participate. To insure all of our relative safety, everybody gotta participate. They have to be overwhelmed.

    I see the light. It makes sense. But while I’m willing to drive 8-10 hours and spend a couple hundred to stand with 20 patriots in Atlanta to restore the Constitution, most are not. If they’re not willing to do that, I find it highly unlikely that they would take the aggressive action outlined.

    I’ll reiterate my opinion. Everybody gotta participate. I’ll cover your ass if you cover mine. I can lead or follow. But I will be damned if I’ll hang my ass out to dry for subject on the blogs.

    It’s also important to keep in mind that a great majority of our “compatriots” want total collapse. They believe their ends will be achieved should such an event happen. There is no preserve, protect, defend in their eyes. Only the Charles Manson syndrome. Completely insane in my opinion but I hope the sons of bitches know what their doing.

    I’ve been told there is only me and 278 other like minded individuals. Ain’t enough.

    But I hear you brah. Total sense. Men like you are necessary to constrain men like me.

    • Cassandra (of Troy)

      alan w. mullenax/outlaw patriot|25Aug12@16:44,

      For the ‘million armed men’/’final warning’ to the Imperium to be successful it’d indeed have to be national in scope, but also appropriately ‘diverse’, & backed up by a simultaneous & widespread supportive LE & military revolt similar to that of the French in north Africa when American forces landed. W/o that, your point of the Imperium/its allies descending on the assembled demonstrators w/ lethal force is true. Such is mandatory for the Imperium to retain its hold on power. Show trials of what few survivors were left (w/ ‘loyal’ family members/friends/co-workers/’acquaintances’ as govt witnesses) would be de rigueur, & it’s a near certainty that the leaders would be given death sentences w/ those in the ranks who refused to roll over going to the joint for life……which is essentially a death sentence as they’d likely be killed by ‘patriotic inmates who took just revenge on the traitors’. Afterward, ‘spontaneous’ pro-Imperium rallies complete w/ Lee Greenwood-type accompaniment, ‘bread & circuses’, celebrity exhortations for the public to express their loyalty to the regime, & a national ‘re-dedication’ to its ideals would ensue as per Imperial S.O.P.

      I agree w/ your assessment of the motives of some who’re ‘pro-collapse’, but differ w/ your blanket application of the ‘Charles Manson syndrome’ label to same. Pat Hines/similar are definitely of the former mindset & to them are indeed preserving, protecting, & defending what he/they believe to be the intent of the Founders as expressed in the DoI & possibly the Federalist/Anti-Federalist papers. It’s also likely that there are those of the religious persuasion who salivate at the prospect of establishing some form of ‘holy’ satrapy from which ‘soldiers for Christ’ would sally forth & ‘reclaim the nation for God’ thereby assuring its (& their) ‘salvation’. Shout HALLELUJAH, brothers & sisters, make ready the Pillars of Thermal Purificaton & National Redemption, REMEMBER JOHN BROWN & ONWARD! Makes ya almost burst w/ hope for the future, doesn’t it.

      I also agree w/ your point about not hanging out one’s posterior needlessly. CYA helps prevent KIA & other negative occurrences.

      And despite what you/others may believe, I’m not one of the Mansonites, nor am I a fan of opportunists. I’d much rather everyone conduct a mass cranio-rectal extraction, chill the flippin’ hell out, get their collective colonic ejecta properly oriented, & quit jacking others around. But such isn’t the way of things &, barring unmistakable & irrefutable Divine Intervention, the prospects for such a voluntary comprehensive shift of viewpoint are slight thus necessitating invocation of the primary law of nature & its Roman extension: Adapt or Die/Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

      Cassandra (of Troy)

      • alan w. mullenax

        Thou dost contend that I have been unfair to Senor Hines?

        All I’ve done is asked a couple of questions. To date, no answers.

        Understand, I have taken the oath. I sacrificed eight years of my life on active duty upholding that oath. Ergo, I’m not big on the collapse of this nation.

        And it’s avoidable. Unfortunately, ignorance, apathy, cowardice, and greed appear to be winning the day.

        If secession is such a wonderful thing, pray tell why it must rely on the collapse of the nation? Why not initiate now? In my view it puts those people in league with the Communists, Islamists, anarchists, et al.

        Understand, I’m just defining my battlespace. And I do not believe the enemy of my enemy is necessarily my friend.

        • Cassandra (of Troy)

          alan w. mullenax/outlaw patriot|26Aug12@17:23,

          Nay, sir, I doth not & prithee not to contemplate such. Verily do I interact w/ thee/others w/ the expectation of likewise for is not such the mark of the Reasonable & Adult?

          I noticed the lack of specificity, sets off my skunk in the cabbage alarm pronto. I get the distinct feeling that JtS’s appraisal of PH/his colleague’s true motivations is correct, & if so such would deem me to be an ‘undesirable’/’too Yankeefied’ & therefore deserving of the Yellow Star ‘award’. No can do, wrong ethno-religious affiliation.

          Ditto on the first sentence & the last, w/ the addtl that I’ve better things to do. Besides, it’s such a nice, quirky country & much too pretty to do the war thing in. But then, so was/is Europe, certain parts of Africa/Asia, various Pacific isles. Since such antics seem to be inherent, we really need to develop our Moon or the Martian ones for such disruptive & destructive activities, better for the critters that way.

          Yep, like George Harrison said.

          If you’re going to bust someone who’s MUCH bigger/stronger/more experienced upside the head & desire to maintain the expectation of emerging relatively unscathed do you do so alone, from the front, while he’s looking at you? Same same for secession. I don’t like the prospect either, but my proposed Western Alliance is (to me) much more appealing than the Euro multi-national/single continent model. You might be able to largely preserve & possibly even restore most if not all of America from a loose assnl base, the ‘U.S.E.’ way that some are proposing for post-Collapse/civil war America is imo likely to imitate their ‘success’. Thanx, but I’ll pass.

          Ditto, & ditto, but if feasible perhaps a temporary ally, w/ a terminal backup as per Mattis just in case they get ideurz. Being a native of the Land of Fruits & Nuts (Bay Area chapter) only enhances the wisdom of his dictum, & I tend to stay w/ things that work. Reds/similar leftists are automatically defuncted as they’re neo-Aztecs, & I’m not interested in being the ‘volunteer’ du jour for their (or anyone else’s) altar. Ethnic supremacists generally also get the nod for byebye as my ‘mongrel’ bloodline makes me an eventual target of their aspirations for ‘purity’. Religious/anti-religious fanatics as well garner the hairy eyeball for similar reasons, but such are eligible for a case by case reprieve if their behavior warrants it. Most modern anarchists are just crypto-leftists trying to hide that fact under a fig leaf of political respectability & so are designated as too dishonest to leave around unhindered for too long. In sum, my attitude is that people can either be cool or be made that way, their choice.

          And now that you’re properly cheered up, I bid you adieu.

          Cassandra (of Troy)

          • alan w. mullenax

            I gotta be honest.

            I took the Graduate Record Exam right before graduation from college. My scores were high enough to enter any college in the nation.

            Reading you is much like that encountered in the reading comprehension portion of that test.

            • Cassandra (of Troy)

              alan w. mullenax/outlaw patriot|27Aug12@19:38,

              Thank you?

              Cassandra (of Troy)

  7. Each free man or woman must make his or her own decision.

    I am as aware as anyone as to the closing of the Bad People.

    More in this vein to come….

  8. Pingback: Give Them An Education « Liberty and Lead

  9. I would gladly pick the Savage 110 over the Remington 700, any dayof the week. I have both, and I love my Savage.

    • Atlas Shrug

      There are many quality center fire bolt actions around. I’ve owned, used, and liked models from Remington, Winchester, Steyr, Savage, Sako, Anschutz, Ruger, Browning, another commercial maker or two, and various military surplus guns. While I do love semi autos, I’m an admitted Bolt Action Man.

      That all said, the model most represented in my stable now is the Savage. It’s got a clackity movity bolt that is nothing like the smooth movements of my Steyr and Winchester bolts, but I can change the barrels or adjust the headspace on my own, with cave man simple tools.

      In today’s world, that is worth a whole wheelbarrow full of RemChesterBys that rely upon a gunsmith for barrel work. If you apply some of the suggestions from the original article here, I do suggest that you also take advantage of the Savage for it’s ease of FrankenRifle modifications. Might want to get an extra barrel wrench or two. Likewise with the barrel nut. As to barrels themselves, you can’t have too many IMHO.

      Would those poor IRA gents have had such an option, life might have been a bit easier, at least in the Ordnance Department.

      Keep your powder dry,

      Atlas Shrug

  10. Cassandra (of Troy)

    RE: Scoped hunting rifles

    Something for the Fudd Quislings (‘Fuddlings’?) to consider.:

    If you believe that the anti-2A/pro-thug/pro-dictatorship cult will grant you some form of ‘dispensation’ for your betrayal of other gun owners, remember that shortly after the 9/11 attacks, a N/E chapter of the Brady Campaign tried to get deer hunters in trouble w/ LE by calling in about ‘armed people in the woods behaving suspiciously’.

    Like it or not, Niemoller also applies to you & it’s just a matter of when, not if, your turn in the dry showers will come around.

    And it will, eventually, bet on it. Ditto for those in LE & the military.

    Cassandra (of Troy)

  11. Cassandra (of Troy)

    Something for bolt rifle shooters to consider.:

    http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7667/sku=495100700/Product/Rem-700-Single-Set-Trigger

    And for the smiths & ‘precision shooters’ out there, your opinions on the practicality & efficacy of the following/similar for use on various bolt/pump/semi-auto hunting rifles from .22LR-the .30cal Magnums.:

    http://www.smithenterprise.com/products06.05.html

    Cassandra (of Troy)

    • Atlas Shrug

      My opinions on these accessories.

      1. Set triggers can be nice, but they are never as robust as a solid factory trigger. Thus for a field rifle I would not recommend them.

      Many factory triggers are poor, but can be made serviceable. Decent single stage after market triggers by Rifle Basix and Timney are on several of my rifles (and I love a two stage Anschutz match trigger – but only on a target rifle). I recommend one of them if one must replace a trigger on a field rifle. In general, keep it as simple as possible (the old Winchester Model 70 trigger may be the ideal balance of robustness, safety, simplicity, and the ability to be easily adjusted to yield an acceptable pull – both crisp and light). The Savage Accu-trigger can be good, but it has a potential drawback or two (I’ve had no issues with mine, but some others have had problems).

      2. A flash hider can be critical – especially if the barrel is short.

      The SEI Vortex is one of the best, if not the best. I also have some experience with them and commend them. (See several of the Guerrilla Sniper Rifle posts from the past.) Also, ensure that it uses the same thread type as the suppressor most likely to be used on the rifle (for most .30 calibers, this will be 5/8″ x24, but there are more than one version so double check what you’ll need).

      • Cassandra (of Troy)

        Atlas Shrug/28Aug12@18:53,

        Thanx for your response, AS

        1. Drat, there went that idea. I was hoping that such would be fieldable as it’d enhance the capabilities of an already good rifle. It was my signal pleasure to experience the excellence of the trigger on a 60s/70s(?) Husqvarna & it spoiled me for anything I’ve since encountered, wish I’d bought it as it was an orig/near new .30-06. What’s your assessment of the Sako #4 trigger? My 60s FN Mauser came equipped w/ one & it seems to be a good unit w/ decent adjustments & acceptable stoutness.

        2. The Smith’s indeed very good, made the sparks from a flicked cig cherry seem like a flashbulb compared to 5.56/M193 from an AKM. Same thing w/ an FAL, simply amazing. Since the barrels of nearly all .22LRs are so small, do you think something like the rig on the Nam era CAR-15 would be useful for flash/sound suppression/moderation or would a can be simpler/better?

        Cassandra (of Troy)

        • Atlas Shrug

          Follow on discussion of Cassandra’s questions. (Some thread drift here for sure, but some of the data is still germane to the OP line of thinking on accurate and powerful transmission of ballistic energy.)

          Triggers.
          I’m not saying that any particular trigger is bad per se, just to keep things in perspective. I’ve not used the one you link, and it might be workable, yet my advice still leans towards staying away from add on complexity and lurching towards rock solid reliability – for a field or hard use rifle For such a rifle that you take to the field, may trust your life to, and have no armory support back in camp for, you want a darned robust trigger.

          For example, Jewell triggers have a great reputation and deserve it, yet with any gunk in the system are said to be unreliable (I’ve only used them on pristine target rifles, so I never experienced this, but others have). Thus put a simpler, less “refined” but more robust Timney unit on. I’ve put the basic Timney on several mil surplus M98 samples and ended up with very crisp, very repeatable, very safe/stable 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 pound trigger pulls. This is just fine for their purposes. (Similarly, the newer Rifle Basix units seem good too. I have one on a Savage and find it to be an excellent single stage trigger. Crisp, stable, safe, simple to install – gotta love it.)

          At the other end of the scale, my target .22a have Anschutz triggers on them. Such can be fitted to both the Remington 700 and Winchester 70 systems via an adapter. I considered doing this for my long range rifles in .308 and similar calibers, but instead I stuck with the solid Winchester M70 triggers (carefully and properly adjusted, lubricated, and tested for safety). Were I building a dedicated Palma or NRA Long Range or F Class gun I might use the Anschutz trigger. However, I wanted my long range guns to be reliable and robust so that if they every had to go out in the field for unknown duty, they would not become a finicky target rifle. Those were my criteria, yours may differ.

          The Sako #4 trigger is a fine unit and many were put on M98 variants like yours. Just so they are not adjusted too light, they should be fine. Sako does not make junk – but everything has design limitations

          Note that I am not a gunsmith, just a careful and serious rifleman. I have everything from long (gritty) military Mauser two stage triggers through angelic Steyr and Anschutz triggers, the latter breaking in ounces, not pounds. All can be made to work and all have their place. While I do love a great trigger, I can make a decent trigger work just fine. IIRC Jeff Cooper has some comments along these lines in his seminal work “Art of the Rifle.”

          Flash Hiders/etc.

          By all means if you are able to go the suppressor route, do so. It can be legally problematic depending upon the state and local laws and CLEO opinions. It’s also more costly. There are very few other drawbacks. Were money and legal paperwork not issues, a strong case can be made for one of the SEI Vortex FHs with quick attach suppressor capability. That way there is no need to remove the FH and put on the can. You just install the can over the FH. Alas, I do not have such a setup myself, though I do pine for one.

          The prior is all relative to centerfire suppressors. The .22 rimfire also benefits from a suppressor, but generally will have a smaller, more dedicated unit since the design parameters are different than for centerfire oriented units. Some units for .223 can serve well on .22lr guns, but confirm that this is OK with the maker since the .22lr shoots “dirty” and cleaning can become an issue. Research is needed here for anyone attempting double duty, IMHO.

          I have no knowledge of the CAR system.

          Keep your powder dry (and muzzle flash low),

          Atlas Shrug

          • Cassandra (of Troy)

            Atlas Shrug/29Aug12@07:51,

            Triggers: Gotcha & agreed. Thanx for the appraisal of the #4 Sako unit, mine’s set to where it breaks cleanly w/o surprises/instability. I’m not a ‘glass rod’ devotee, repeatable predictablity’s more my taste & as I’ve seen really light triggers trip unexpectedly when jarred I guess a set unit’s not gonna work. And Anschutz’s are TRULY marvelous!

            Suppressors: The conditions I was referring to where FHs/Cans would be used generally & on .22LRs in particular are those of the FreeFor variety & your points about the utility of same are well taken. .22LRs are notoriously filthy & as such have proven troublesome used w/ cans, but there are some new designs that’ve reportedly solved most of the problems. The bad part’s they’re heavily manufactured & so aren’t easily reproducible under the aforementioned scenario, & after reviewing the one used on the CAR-15/XM177E2 it’s also eliminated from consideration for the same reason. Looks like the Vortex/similar’s the best way to go for the .22LR w/ some kind of baffled expansion chamber lashup as a can. That ol’ accursed ‘no free lunch’ rule strikes again.

            Gotta w/ the powder & flash, & thanx again, AS.

            Cassandra (of Troy)