The Integration


…Brian Dye, Operations Chief of I&I in Lexington, Kentucky says training civilians as a blended force with Marine Corps personnel eases the transition into a real world scenario.

“I think it’s always good when you get an opportunity to work on some similar tactics and procedures so that everybody’s kind of operating on the same page. That way when you bring teams together from active duty and the civilian side, it makes the integration a whole lot smoother…”

(h/t RITR)

38 responses to “The Integration

  1. In somewhat related news, I spray-painted my .308 tonight. You never know when civilians will need to know military tactics, after all.

    So, can an “Oathkeeper” marine train a civilian LEO and keep his oath?

    Can an LEO “Oathkeeper” keep his oath while training with military?

    Hmmm.

  2. Ask the leader of that organization. The response would be postworthy.

    Another postworthy response would be an inquiry to the USMC PAO.

  3. Preparing to tame the “Tea Party Uprising”….old fat guys waving “Don’t Touch My Medicare!” signs.

  4. AP, I’ve got more than a few friends who happen to be cops. As I tell them frequently, you cannot be a cop in today’s America and keep your oath. They break it every single day, whether they want to admit it or not. As far as “Oathkeepers” goes, the same thing stands. Don’t tell me what you’re going to do “when the time comes.” It’s already here. What are you going to do TODAY? But, hey, Rhodes came up with a great way to make money, leveraging his organization into speaking engagements and shit, right?
    ND,
    John

  5. Ah, I see. It’s all in the hopper, boyo. Well then, nothing to see or do here. Off to the pub. Or not.

  6. At least he has done something positive, thats much more than most can say. Is OK perfect? NO. But its much better than not having them around. They have made a lot of in roads with many LEO’s that would have never even made a second glance at the Constitution. Waking up is a slow tedious process, many leo in Oath Keepers are still in the midst of that process. Hell, many readers of this blog are still in the process.

    PS – And I hope he makes lots money giving speeches — that way he can afford to keep spreading the message.

  7. I agree; there is no “later”. The time to uphold one’s oath is NOW.

  8. Pingback: A Letter To The USMC PAOs | Western Rifle Shooters Association

  9. ID the traitors, and find out where they live. When the time comes, do a Seal Team 6. Don’t sweat collateral damage…

  10. I think Rhodes is genuine. Saying otherwise is a low and ugly thing. Unless you can back the inference up. Which I don’t think anyone can. We need less sniping and jealousy or whatever the motive is.

  11. I believe the issue is that Rhodes has shown few tangible results. From the outside looking in, it appears that these are a bunch of deluded Constitutionalists giving each other a warm fuzzy. Tangible results would go a long way to dispell that notion.

  12. You are right, ElDuderino. Rhodes and his Oathkeepers have done nothing while all the rest of us have been sweating our balls off pounding our keyboards on the Internet. Shame on them.

    Of course, it is possible that Rhodes might be waking up a few LEOs and Military folks who will think twice before pulling a trigger pointed at American citizens. But that is so paltry and weak that he ought to just shut up and stay at home, pounding a keyboard like the rest of us, right?

  13. Pingback: A Letter to the USMC PAOs | Mark Roote's Blog

  14. Rhodes has an organization…..thats all I have seen so far. Yes RegT that takes a lot of work to put together and maintain but ALMOST every time OathKeepers have been presented with an opportunity to take a firm stand and support the FREEFOR cause tactically they have punted. By tactically I mean at a protest or on a specific incident. Anything that might draw negative publicity has them folding like a lawn chair.
    I am glad their out there but they have so far proved nothing.

  15. If now is the time to uphold our oaths and the most that you will do is write a strongly worded letter or bag on someone for making money when you are charging for training then we are in deeper kimchi than I thought.

    Try looking in the mirror before blasting other people. We are all frustrated and angry by what they are doing to the country that we love. The time is coming. The sooner that the circular firing squad BS ends the better off we will be.

  16. (No relation)
    The reality of the OK org was visible almost from the very beginning. Anyone in most LEOrg known to belong to OK had zero career remaining. How many here have sacked their career just to belong to an org? Aint like there is a lot of use for the skill set outside of government is there.
    How many have have contacted the government lackeys to protest this policy?
    Didn’t think so.
    Not sounding the horn for OK, it has its issues to be sure, but lets keep things in perspective.

  17. If people are afraid of acting or even standing due to career impact while things are peaceful, is there a rational reason to believe that they will reverse position 180 degrees and stand once things get kinetic?

    Do not expect help from anyone on the government payroll or dependent on the government payroll.

    Be open to the possibility of an anomaly or two, but do not expect anything but opposition from such folks — even within your own family.

    Sad but true.

  18. If a member has lost his job or been held back because of his membership that story is not being made public or at least loud enough to make an impact. THATS what I am talking about. OK have not presented that story, they have not taken up the cause of non members beyond the occasional superficial presence. I have seen them mentioned in specific stories about the plight of individuals but rather than come out and take a strong stand and support those individuals they have remained non-comitted. They have refrained from gathering in public offically with other FREEFOR groups. In short…Punted.

  19. alan w. mullenax

    Then, fuck them.

  20. John, as soon as I saw you bust on OK, I thought, “well, now he’s done it. There go all the attaboys” LOL. Sure enough …

    Welcome to the “truth-keepers” club. You will know you’ve gotten senior membership when Stewart calls you out by name as he did me during his talk at the Liberty Forum in 2010 up in New Hampshire.

    Regardless, this will pass. And don’t let the naysayers bring you down about the training you are selling. Good for you, and I’m happy for you that you are adding enough value to people’s lives that they are lining up to pay for it (free enterprise anyone?). Keep up the good work.

    And to those who really, really want to believe the OK is doing anything other than generating self-recursive membership, watch this about their 2011 Tucson march for Jose Guerena:

    4:50-5:35

    “I want to make it very clear, we are not here to criticize, condemn or persecute the individual deputies on the Pima County Sheriff’s Department … ”

    And then, while making Mrs. Guerena stand there and sob as they had their play, they gave her a goddamned Oathkeepers T-shirt (20:06-20:08).

    Hey, thanks guys. How about GETTING IN THE FACE OF LEO? How about SHAMING THEM INDIVIDUALLY AND PERSONALLY FOR KILLING HER HUSBAND LIKE A DOG? And how about not turning a victim into a walking ad for OK? Or not making her stand there and cry while you torture her? (22:00+)

    Oh, that would get in the way of recruiting, wouldn’t it?

    If I get taken out by LEO, First Wife has standing orders to spit in Stewart’s face if he tries to turn her grief into an OK recruiting rally.

    On the other hand, the first time OK bothers to actually stand up and get in LEO grill in a substantive way, with full intent to (AT THE VERY LEAST) to get some of these thugs prevented from ever again wearing a badge of public office, and hound them for life to see that they never so much as get a job as a mall security guard anywhere, I will be behind OK 100%. I’m not holding my breath, though…

    Tom

  21. Semper Fi, 0321

    I joined OK back around #630, kept asking them what their backup plan was when they didn’t scare FedGov into submission with their signs and placards. Some administrator deleted my pics and comments.
    Same goes for me, Fuk’em.

  22. Everyone go piss in the wind — and don’t forget to tug on Superman’s cape!

    C’mon get real you dopes. OK is the only organized effort going that stands even that much of a chance of success, building slowly with results expected of any civil organization (i.e., not funded by the limitless trough called the US Annual Budget).

    But then you are all such great organizers and tell-the-the-fuck-off-ers that I’m surprised you have time to play Internet Warrior. Don’t you have a revolution to conduct?

    WTF?

    Oh I see. It’s just easier and a lot more fun to criticize someone else than it is to do it yourself.

    Yeah, makes sense. My bad.

  23. So what tangible results ought he have achieved so far?
    National organization. Check.
    Winning a few gov’t teat suckers to the cause. Check.
    Design and conduct the “reach, teach, inspire” method of evangelism. Check.
    Manage to survive as an organization past the deadly three year mark. Check.
    Expecting individual members to think and act for themselves instead of dictating to them from Valhalla as a god? Check.

    WELCOME TO REALITY. ANY OF YOU BELONG TO THE ROTARY? THE JAYCEES? THE GARDEN CLUB?

    DO YOU HAVE ANY FRIGGIN IDEA HOW HARD IT IS TO GET VOLUNTEERS TO DO ANYTHING WITHOUT A BIG FAT PROMISE OF A PERSONAL REWARD TO ENTICE THEM?

    No… didn’t think so.

    It’s just easier to bark orders to some other schlob and get him to do it for you.

  24. Worse than armchair quaterbacking, I swear.

    So when do we learn about YOUR efforts, Grenadier1? What do YOU have to your credit in resolving this unholy mess we’re in?

  25. Hi Josey, I understand completely your desire to believe in something “real”. However, in THIS CASE, a “grassroots watchdog” organization which effectively says to out of control LEO, “no problem guys, we, too, will look the other way at your abuses and excesses” is WORSE than NO ORGANIZATION AT ALL. As a counter-example, Adam Kokesh and his small team does more for pushing back on LEO than the vast and supplicating OK.

    So if you and I don’t push back on Oathkeepers, and shame them into shaming LEO, then we’re once again hoping that someone in a cape will save us the trouble of getting our hands dirty.

    When this USMC+LEO marriage becomes consummated, my conscience will be clean with respect to OK’s role in not ever having shamed anyone on either side of the aisle into at least walking away. I’ve told Stewart this to his face years ago and watched him tap-dance around it. You?

    Tom

  26. I think I can help answer that. From what I’ve seen, like many of us, G1 has bootstrapped himself from a sheeple into the classical militiaman. He’s sought out training at his own expense, and educated himself about a variety of topics from tactics all the way through the historical precedents for the situation in which we find ourselves. He’s reached out to others in his community to do real things in meatspace, where it counts. He has followed through where his resources permit, and admitted when things are a stretch rather than futilely chest-beating.

    If we would all follow G1’s example, and do that much, and encourage our neighbors to do the same, the country would be better off, I think.

    It is a cheap shot to take at a man who is doing nothing more than questioning the practical impact of an organization that pimps itself to each of us whenever we walk into a gun show. OK places itself in the public eye, they want our support and they want our respect. We should demand that they earn it.

    Tom

  27. As usual, mixed feelings here, Boss…
    Of course I wish OK would have stood firm on some things where I believe they let us (and more importantly THEMSELVES!) down! Guerena was a SPECTACULAR example – the RTC on the DC border was another…

    Still, he’s gotten a few thousand LEs and Soldiers to swear to refuse 10 tyrannical orders – and countless more to give some serious thought to their oath!

    From where **I** am sitting that seems to be a very worthwhile endeavor!
    And – like others – I too am glad he’s found a way to make a living at it. Would anyone be better off if he were slaving away in a cubicle like countless others?

    Sometimes we-all are like my wife — doesn’t matter WHAT I do, there’s always something I DIDN’T do, and that’s what she never fails to focus on…

    Basically, I figure it’s OK to say “I’m glad for what they’ve done, though I wish they’d also…” – but this seems to be too much to ask most of the time…

    For myself, if I can’t give credit where it’s due, I *TRY* to force myself to have a nice cup of STFU…

  28. I appreciate all thoughts presented above. If OK could unravel themselves from membership numbers and the resultant dollars, they would remain less wealthy and more ethically sound (something about sacrificing fortune anyone?).
    Still can’t detract from the impact they’ve had on previously unthinking LEOs/military.

    Wouldn’t it be nice if we could find a way to do both? Infect our friends and neighbors with thoughts and dreams of unalienable rights while empowering them to defend them.
    If they’re my neighbors, I might ask them to chip in a couple bucks toward gas on the way to the range. If I had to drive cross-state to “infect” them, I’d hope for a couple more to cover my expenses.
    I have to take John at his word that this is all he does.
    A national .org drawing salaries and funding a ton of overhead is not the same, especially when it refuses to toe all the way to the line…

  29. For myself, if I can’t give credit where it’s due, I *TRY* to force myself to have a nice cup of STFU…

    +10, DDad.

  30. Good thoughts, DD. Here is credit where credit is due. Oathkeepers has been spectacularly successful at encouraging thousands of members of LEO and .mil who would be most likely to assist us to skyline themselves long before the need for them becomes apparent.

    This is always THE major problem with “rah rah” sign-up campaigns of any kind from any source, no matter how well-intentioned it may seem at the time.

    And I submit to you that the vast majority of ink-to-paper-Oathkeepers signed up, not from a “come to Jesus” moment, but because they were already there inside. Getting people to skyline themselves is not anywhere near the same as changing their perspective on their role behind a badge.

    This was my central point in the Colonels article: when the time comes, “oathkeepers” (not the organization, but individuals whether they’ve even heard of OK or not) will have been long swept out of the way and nowhere near the action. Other comments above makes my Colonels point exactly: becoming an Oathkeeper is an act of courage which puts an active Oathkeeper’s career at risk while assuring that this risk will have been assumed for no practical benefit when the time comes.

    It was this point which Stewart sought to deflect in New Hampshire in 2010. When this ugly fact stares him in the face, he dodges.

    Care to guess how many ink-to-paper-Oathkeepers are involved in those joint USMC-LEO operations on either side? I would guess about zero. Certainly a rational mission planner would make sure that this is so.

    And no, this doesn’t this mean that Oathkeepers was COINTELPRO. But it doesn’t matter one bit. The net effect will prove to be the same whether this was by design or spectacularly poor foresight despite numerous forewarnings from many quarters.

    Bottom line: I would much rather prospective “oathkeepers” keep their oaths hidden in their hearts so that they will be in the right place when the time comes, instead of wearing their OK T-shirts sitting on the sidelines watching when it goes to hell.

    This is another of those times when reality sucks real bad. I wish it wasn’t so, but it is what it is. Let the flames resume.

    Tom

  31. “…OK’s role in not ever having shamed anyone on either side of the aisle into at least walking away.”

    Just curious…how do you know this? Seems to me that nobody knows what goes on in an individual’s mind, and that nobody could know the private decisions of men (or women) who live private lives, or what influences them. Let’s not forget that the overwhelming majority of people don’t ever write a post or comment, or even call a talk radio show.

    Don’t get me wrong—my impression of the organization /as an organization/ is not so different from yours, but that doesn’t tell me what influence it may have had on others whom I don’t pretend to know.

    So I wonder how you might know it.

    For me it’s a lot like Kerodin’s Citadel thing—regardless of my judgment of the implementation, or even the motivations, in both cases they’ve struck upon very primary principles. That is, in both cases they touch upon basic plans of action which figure to bode VERY importantly in the future. Surely you don’t disagree that an awful lot rests upon the private decisions of individual LEOs and military folk in the future, do you?

    I often think I can do something better than the next guy. OTOH I also realize that I’ve got only one life to live–mine–and so I figure the next guy is doing his best to do what he can do. I’m more interested in WHAT he’s trying to do, rather than knocking him for not doing it as well as I might do it. Do you think that’s a mistaken approach?

  32. “Care to guess how many ink-to-paper-Oathkeepers are involved in those joint USMC-LEO operations on either side? I would guess about zero. Certainly a rational mission planner would make sure that this is so.”

    Sure, but how many NOT ink-to-paper? How many who just THINK it?

    “Bottom line: I would much rather prospective ‘oathkeepers’ keep their oaths hidden in their hearts…”

    Makes mighty good sense to me. So how many of those do you suppose there are, and how many have been influenced by the ink-to-paper OKs? Me, I’d guess (that’s GUESS) a zillion more than ink-to-paper OKs.

  33. chuckisageek

    I think when OK bailed on the Rally in DC, was when I wished them well but expected nothing, and haven’t thought about them for a second since that day until this thread.

  34. Honestly, “me too” – and “me either”…

    Still, based on what I know, it seems to me that we’re better off with than without them…

  35. Pingback: Codrea: Unanswered Questions For The USMC PAOs | Western Rifle Shooters Association

  36. A reality check on OK
    Could it be COINTELPRO?

    Well when Brandon Raub was arrested OK members from around the country were ready to come to VA and demonstrate. We also had alot of support from around the state for a march in Charlottesville from non OK patriots, vets and LEOs.

    Stewart Rhodes called it off.

  37. Hi Tom,

    Believe it or not, just working through to this post. Apologies for the long time.

    Please don’t sell OK short. Rhodes is undertaking a formidable task and has a strong infrastructure to show for it. Such an infrastructure will be sine qua non long before and “stand down” has a prayer of success. There is much to consider in this: organizational personal reputations (meaning, unimpeachable character for OK and the OKs); legal support; family support including food and shelter; communication between OK and the multiple departments and agencies that comprise that world.

    This is not coming to fruition anytime soon — maybe in a few more years. The almost certain outcome of rushing is disaster. The infrastructure must be in place, sound and confirmed before anyone will stick his neck on the chopping block. Heck, I almost forgot to mention the guarandamteed retribution that will, of course, be extralegal.

    (Thinking of that new ABC program, “Last Restort”.)

    Love your work by the way-
    Joe