From A Reader

BoiseState-MSS-56-COM-122A-630x418

As commented on this post:

Have any of you fellows ever taken the time to read the entire report issued by The Church Committee? The introduction alone is pretty damn eye-opening and worth every minute invested. You might just want to brush up on it a bit before you start biting the Senator’s heels with such unbound enthusiasm. Being from Idaho, well, Larry Craig is another matter entirely.

Regarding Dweezil’s comment (Are you related to or one of Frank Zappa’s offspring?) – Who gives a damn about the South Vietnamese hanging in the wind? The world is full of presumed “injustices” and ‘Nam was just another shit hole that we should never have been in the first place. Find any legal justification for it in the Constitution, let alone in the writings published in either The Federalist Papers or The Anti-Federalist Papers. And just like now, I sure as hell never read a declaration of war against North Vietnam. There wasn’t a single “Founder” who would have agreed with a damn thing we’ve done since the War of 1812 with the possible exception of that little Mexican War that ended with the southern border at least geographically fixed in its present incantation.

At least Frank Church had the cajones to state in the committee report and with great alarm that the Constitution had been suspended since F.D.R.’s 1933 declaration of a “National Emergency”, that we were in effect living under an executive dictatorship and that Congress had (wrongly) willingly surrendered it’s law-making authority to the executive branch. For those accurate and concerning accusations he was villified by the G.O.P. and many Democrats as well, when in fact they should have instantly championed him and turned their metaphorical guns on what the office of POTUS had become and the methodology of how the alphabet soup that make up the bureaucracies of the executive branch of government are in truth the damn government, with a happily castrated congress on the sideline that doesn’t, won’t, and essentially cannot do a damn thing.

Read “Philip Dru – Administrator”, penned by that horrid little “Colonel” Mandell House in 1912 to see what was envisioned by these cretins. Then compare and contrast with today. “Mission Accomplished.” Entries by bureaucrats in “The Federal Register” are what rule over us, nothing but ink-dripped machinations issued from mindless automatons representing the various executive branch bureaucracies which become “law” 90 days after being published in said “Register.”

They do not disappear during election cycles. They are a cancer that does not go away.

On the flip side, the “conservative” philosophy was dictated when William F. Buckley argued in the mid-1950′s that the so-called “conservatives” would just have to put up with “Big Government” until the Cold War was won. Thanks Bill, you patrician son-of-a-bitch and C.I.A. plant!

That utterance essentially argued a surrender to “New Deal on Steroids” socialism while simultaneously opening the door to idiocies like “Nam” and every brush fire since, many of which our overseers lit themselves for their personal gain or that of some “Ally”, who under any normal point in history would be considered a damn enemy. The G.O.P. focused essentially on stopping the “commie threat” abroad while its domestic tentacles strangled to death what was left of a fast disappearing “republic” into the “democratic socialist” hell hole we have today.

Soft tyranny? Read the damn report from the committee.

http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/churchcommittee.html

Book I, Foreign and Military Intelligence

Book II, Intelligence Activities and the Rights of Americans

Book III, Supplementary Detailed Staff Reports on Intelligence Activities and the Rights of Americans

Book IV, Supplementary Detailed Staff Reports on Foreign and Military Intelligence

Book V, The Investigation of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: Performance of the Intelligence Agencies

Book VI, Supplementary Reports on Intelligence Activities

44 responses to “From A Reader

  1. Man the author who wrote this cannot differeniate between Jefferson and Stalin. Church was the ultimate big government man and he rejoiced when Vietname collapsed and did everything he could to weaken the USA, not for freedom but to to weaken us in the face of our enemies.

  2. DWEEZIL THE WEASEL

    To Whom It May Concern: First, Dweezil The Weasel is my screen name in honor of our golden-retriever-whippet mix who passed two years ago. He was a great dog. I was not a fan of Frank Zappa, but I am sure if he were still alive, he would be screaming bloody murder about Barry and his minions. Second, when you make a commitment to a country, those helpless people are counting on you and your resources to stand by them. I was in the Army from ’69 to ’71. I did not go overseas. Nixon was winding down the war and I, along with several hundred others, was cashiered out of Infantry OCS and shipped to Fort Hood, Texas for the duration. The soldier returnees that I ran into told a different story about the commitment of the anti-communist Southerners, regardless of their corrupt government.
    Yes, I agree that we never should have been there. I think there are some journalists out there who even opine that Jack Kennedy was murdered because he saw the futility of Amerika’s effort in SE Asia and wanted out, much to the chagrin of the military-industrial complex who was making bank over that illegal war.
    But, in for a penny, in for a pound. It was Church and his minions who would not authorize any more air strikes on advancing North Vietnamese COMMUNIST forces against the South Vietnamese army. Our troops were gone by then, with the exception of a few advisers and civilian contractors. We still had carriers in the Gulf of Tonkin who could have helped. Who knows, it may have given all of those reds enough to think about that maybe they would have negotiated something.
    The end result was a massacre of countless non-communists both there and in Cambodia. The refugee problem landed on our shores. And, if you talk with that generation who are now in their 40’s and older, you will find,especially among the ex-military, a sense of bitterness and betrayal.
    Frank Church may have been prescient about the NSA and the dangerous reach of the FEDGOV. But remember what they say in Hollywood: You’re as good as your last picture. If he had lived, Church, ever the establishment leftist, would be cheerleading for Barry. Count on it.

    • Amen. I left Saigon April 25, 1975 after having been in-country since ’67 with the exception of ’71 & ’72. When you give your word, you honor it regardless of the consequences, but, as proved, we have none.

      ********
      “Who gives a damn about the South Vietnamese hanging in the wind?”

      Screw you.

      • Everything this guy said…+1.

        What person has a soul who says they could give a damn about the South VN???

        • Well, well, well….if it isn’t Georgie’s Detroit. Drummin’ up support for ‘bammie’s forthcoming, unconstitutional US military intervention in Syria, eh? Like all neocons, the US Constitution means squat, correct Detroit?

          I wonder what the poor souls dead from fighting the war in Vietnam think? 58,000 dead and still dying so we could replace our textile industry with clothing made by ChiComs and Commie Vietnamese. Screw the Vietnamese, then, now and forever.

          My soul aches for the dead Americans and their families fighting and dying for an America that only fights wars on behalf of the ruling elites and their dupes in DC. My heart does not ache for those born and bred and living in foreign nations. They are none of my concern.

          When was the US attacked by any nation we’ve made war on in the last 70 years ?

          Now go out and buy yourself some new BVDs made in Commie Vietnam, Detroit. Your soul deserves it.

          PS – Say hello to Georgie for me.

      • Sorry Brock….but Vietnam was a civil war. We didn’t belong there and we paid for it with 58,000+ dead and wounded. Nearly 40 years later I still have friends sufferimg and dying from the leukemia brought on by Agent Orange. For WHAT?

        Here we are nearly 40 years since the fall of Saigon and we’re still allowing the emmigration of Vietnamese families en masse, into this country. We’re also allowing families from Ghana and other African nations to come here, en masse. WHY?

        I’ve had my dealings with those who believe Americans should defend Israel. Pretty much the same argument made for “defending” Vietnam. In soetoro-obama’s recent remarks about the upcoming dance with Syria he implores national security as a reason to shed more blood, American and foreign, to justify his continuing constitutional violations. Well screw the Syrians and the fraud in the West Wing.

        It is time to start giving a damn about THIS country but, most likely it is too late to do so. I didn’t give a damn about the Vietnamese and their civil war just as I don’t give a damn about the Iraqis, Afghanis, the Syrians, the illegal Mexicans et al invading the USA, the Egyptians and particularly the Israelis.

        So Brock, your “screw you” applies to me also. But at your next PATCON you may just want to play TAPS. Play TAPS in honor of our country long dead. Dead from the incessant, undeclared wars and international involvements that have cost us our blood, treasure, liberty and our Constitution.

        “Screw you”….thank you Brock. I’m honored.

  3. Though I generally don’t bother arguing with individuals who don’t know a punctuation mark from a pockmark, I am so compelled.

    Undoubtedly “Veritas” has a well-worn copy of Jefferson’s “Notes on the State of Virginia” gracing the shelves of his library, let alone companion volumes of Jefferson’s correspondence which provide a fairly comprehensive perspective regarding what he considered necessary for the constitution of a proper society. Included in such are his views on the “race problem” (with which I whole-heartedly concur), the role of agrarianism and the “Yeoman farmer” as the base construct of American civilization, as well as his belief in the election of “amateur representation” rather than succumb to professional politicians in the governance of the affairs of the country. Naturally and quite rightly, “small government is good good government” in his perspective, arguably a direct oppositional view from that of Joseph Stalin.

    Stalin never wrote a book to provide us an insight into his psychopathic personality, though Soviet history is littered with his speeches, and as I argued above, they are hardly Jeffersonian. As the good Lord argued, we should judge a man by his fruits. Stalin had a hand in the mass-murder of sixty million Christians during his reign, and while doing so created the largest and most oppressive government the world had ever been witness to. If one is looking for a human to use as an antonym for Thomas Jefferson, Stalin would be a fairly safe choice.

    Historically speaking, by the time Frank Church entered the political scene the United States already had “Big Government.” We had been putting along with a minimally sized federal government until Woodrow Wilson began a moderate expansion which then exploded into a colossus under F.D.R. As Randolph Bourne wrote, “War is the health of the State”, thus between the magnitudinal expansion of the Federal bureaucracy during the Depression and that then furthered during WWII, the U.S. was well on its way to replicating the size of the worst of the worlds governments.

    During the “Cold War” the O.S.S. morphed into the C.I.A. and the N.S.A. came into being, along with a myriad of other “intelligence agencies” attached to particular branches of the military. From the civil side of government, more bureaucracies came to life under every president from that point on, with Richard Nixon winning the prize for creating the most new federal agencies while he played scrabble with the alphabet. Google him. Nixon sure as hell never advocated “small government”, for he was no Jeffersonian kind-of-guy.

    How about everyone’s hero, Ronald Reagan? Nice speeches and all, as he regularly invoked his desire to get rid of such agencies as Carter’s “Department of Education”, but the record shows that government not only didn’t shrink under Reagan, it grew, and both deficit spending and the budget went through the roof. Hell, Reagan talked about it but didn’t even try to kill an agency that wasn’t even started until 1979!

    Returning to the claims of “Veritas”, his opinion reminds me of those who blame Ted Kennedy for the passage of the 1965 Hart-Cuellar Act, commonly referred to as the 1965 immigration Act. Ted Kennedy was elected to the Senate during the 1964 cycle and was what is referred to as a “Junior Senator.” When that bill was introduced he wasn’t even one of the original co-sponsors and only well after its introduction became one. I cannot defend that despicable man, but blaming him for it is nothing but intellectual dishonesty. He did not contribute even a single word to its language. The “enemies within” needed an name with some panache’ to it and Kennedy, no doubt already well compromised, readily agreed.

    The Hart-Cuellar Act was written by relatives of the same people and of the same “faith system” who overthrew the Tsar and began the murderous rampage in formerly Christian Russia. Professor Kevin MacDonald’s meticulously worded book The Culture of Critique, a history of U.S. immigration law and the machinations that led up to that demographic destroying law, exposes exactly who was behind it, who wrote it, and what their now well-executed plan intended to accomplish. It wasn’t Kennedy and it sure wasn’t the Catholic Church. It was “work performed by others.”

    Blaming Kennedy for that legislation was and is a typical “:knee jerk” reaction based upon ignorance. Not understanding who one’s enemies truly are while remaining ignorant of the contents of The Church Committee report(s) and the actual history that led to it is willful ignorance.

    Veritas is the Latin word for “truth.” I would suggest that the odds of hearing the actual truth about matters from those whose constructed contributions resemble little more than bumper sticker-type utterances are pretty damned low. Thankfully the editors of this excellent site provided links to the works of The Church Committee for those with some intellectual curiousity and interest in what the hell was actually leading up to and was occurring during that period. From that point, then a benchmark, one can then lucidly engage in a comparison of where what led to and where we were in the middle 1970’s and how far down the slope we have slid.

    I’ve been a daily reader of this blog for years on end and never felt compelled to comment. The contents are generally really darn good and I just keep on doing my Jeffersonian, “Yeoman Farmer” life, off-grid for decades but wired up fine, pretty well self sufficient, unlike most – a doer instead of a big talker and plagued with a really nasty attitude about what the hell has been going on for a long, long time. An “up deep in the Rocky Mountains and leave me the hell alone” kind of guy.

    Aside from being one of those “greybeard types” now who struggles and cusses to even get close to “Mosby-like” conditioning, my wife and I raised and home schooled four hard-hosed Christian kids who can shoot the noses off squirrels at 100 yards with every shot. Three of the four are now college graduates and the youngest isn’t quite yet old enough to go. A couple of decades back I thought up an axiom that I impressed upon each and every one of them that might be worth thinking about, and might even be one worth quoting:

    “Ignorance is bliss until it kills you.” Keep thinking and stay loaded.

  4. The deadliest enemies of Freedom have always lived right here in America. The foreign wars are little else but an excuse for more, more, more gubmint. CA gets it, as above, and so did Jefferson.

  5. Battlefield USA

    Well hell… after all, Vietnam came right out Jefferson’s ‘How to have a French Revolution’ rulebook.

  6. He is correct…FDR began the actual transformation of this country with 2 things: 1) Tax withholding to fund the second world racket and 2) The Ponzi scheme known as Social Insecurity. When will these be rolled back, changed or eliminated? Until this happens, all else is smoke and mirrors as you cut off the money and the emperor has no clothes. Money equals Power.

  7. i was supeonaed by church and pike in the house i didnt testify but i gave a depsition taken at eight and eye now my records are”lost in transit” and i can get no disability from the va.these guys were bad for this country but what are you going to do? your friend truckwilkins

    • ? ? ? ?

      • i am legally blind and have a hard time with typing.when i was 12 i had a paper route just outside williamsburg va one of my customers was tony po another was a mr bowen i cant remeber his first name my dad lived at the end of wallermill road i could see the nite exercises at camp eary i mean the illum rounds and the sound of gunfire this caused me to explore parts of camp peary where i was caught.anyway when i was fourteen i cut a couple of urban utes who wanted to

        • got messed up someway here anyways the sheriff of james city county archie brennigan and tony po got me into the marine corps illegally on jan 5 1970 i did one tour in nam with f 2/3 and then force recon and then worked for a major lanham who worked for tony po in thailand and its near neighbors i even got a medal from lon nol ive got four kids who have served in these latest yankee wars two still in hope odummy stays out of syria your friend truckwilkins

  8. So, John, I’m curious. How would you judge then, my great grandfathers service to the Confederacy, my grand fathers to WW1(he didn’t fight, he just almost died of pneumonia at Camp Riley), my fathers in WW2, ( wounded at New Guinea and Philippines, 3yrs total in PTO), me a year in Nam and yrs beyond that in the Army. Are we four generations of saps, who answered our country when it called, albeit for evil purposes? And you would do me honor sir, to list briefly your own sacrifices, in the uniform of our country. I full well understand, and am quite knowledgeable of how we have been skunked on a number of adventures in foreign lands, with negligible or nil results, and that our politicians have looted and hoodwinked us in many respects. But please, sit in judgement of me and my ancestors, and be good enough to give me a thorough evaluation of what we did, and why we did it. I am eager to learn. I wish to learn, so that I can find out, whether I should adhere to you guys, or, being in the camp of the enemy anyway, I should go over to them, and do what I can to further their cause. You see my obvious confusion. I seem to have to choose whether to repudiate the work and sacrifice of four generations of my family, or not. I would be most interested in your reply.

    • Mr. Sean….I’m going to answer just a bit of what you asked John to answer. Please forgive my stepping in but I find your thoughts/questions deserving of thoughts/answers other than Mr. Johns:

      1. ‘How would you judge then, my great grandfathers service to the Confederacy,….” Well, in my mind God Bless your Confederate ancestors for they lived by the United States Constitution. They chose to defend state’s rights against the tyranny of Abraham Lincoln’s government.

      2. “my grandfathers to WW1….” They served with a declaration of war by the United States Congress. They served according to the United States Constitution. On April 6, 1917, Congress declared war.

      3. “my fathers in WW2….” On 8 DEC 41 Congress declared war against Japan. On 11 DEC 41 Congress declared war on Germany & Italy. Your ancestors went to war in defense of this country in accordance with the United States Constitution. God Bless them.

      4. “me a year in Nam and yrs beyond that in the Army.” Yes, you were a sap, a youthful, ignorant sap. Just as I and many others were. Congress never declared war against North Vietnam. 58,000 of our brothers died in Vietnam and many continue to suffer and die from the cancerous effects of Agent Orange. Yes, you were a sap but a well-meaning sap.

      5. “be good enough to give me a thorough evaluation of what we did, and why we did it.” Mr. Sean….what you have done and why you did as you did can only be answered by you. No one else. In our youth we many times do things without the knowledge of experience, of the past to guide us. I did what I did because I felt military service was honorable. My confusion was that ALL military service is honorable. No it is not. Only one’s service IN THE DEFENSE OF ONE’S COUNTRY, is honorable. Engaging in armed assault against other nations that have never ATTACKED one’s country is not only barbaric but it is imperialistic and dishonorable.

      Today, we have an illegal, unconstitutional bastard sitting in the West Wing. He is no more legitimate than our armed conflicts in Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon, Irag, Afghanistan, Libya and now most assuredly, Syria. I would suggest you do whatever you can, in what every way, big or small, to denounce the violation of Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5 and Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution we swore to defend, by soetoro-obama and those members of Congress complicit in the violations of these articles.

      Whether you choose to repudiate the military activities of your ancestors is up to you. But for you or anyone else to continue to support and defend the continued violations of our Constitution to which we swore to defend, is at best hypocrisy and dishonorable. At worst….well, you call that one….

  9. indyjonesouthere

    I’m with Brock and Sean on this. Both Korea and Vietnam were extensions of WWII. You can call them civil wars if you wish but viewing the participants in these two wars should tell you they were far more than “civil wars”. Church well reflected his generation along with Moynihan and Humphrey. Moynihan warned of the problem of welfare and its affect on the lower classes but did he ever vote differently than his fellow democrats? Nope. And Humphrey swore that the Civil Rights act didn’t have any wording that would invoke quotas and swore he would eat the whole bill if anyone could point out any such wording. Well we got quotas, later rephrased as affirmative action. And I think shortly thereafter Humphrey died of a paper clog. Each one of these people and more in their generation could talk the talk but could not vote the vote. They did nothing about the fore seen problems and continued the exacerbate them. But their ultimate contribution was the go along to get along abortion wars. Now there’s a fine “civil war” if I ever saw one. Anyone keeping a body count? And what are the boomer and Xer generations doing about it? I thought so, a whole bunch of “dodgers” in this war as well.

    • So Mr. Indyjones….you support the tossing of our Constitution in the toilet, correct ? No ifs, ands or buts….to hell with the Constitution is what your beliefs are, are they not ?

      • indyjonesouthere

        So Mr. DanIII you support the destruction of free will which forms the basis of Christianity and the Constitution? No ifs, ands or buts….to hell with free will is that what your beliefs are, are they not? Can you get the American indian or perhaps a few million abortions off your conscience? How do they fit into your Constitution? Would you have shown up at the gates of Vienna had that occurred during your time? No?

        • Well Mr. Indyjones….my remarks are about undeclared warfare by the United States government without US Congressional approval and the support of the American population, per the United States Constitution, specifically Article 1, Section 8. Not the destruction of human life through abortions or the abuse of Native Americans by the FEDGOV.

          So, rather than explain your reasoning behind your support for undeclared war and the combat deaths of your fellow citizens in those unconstitutional wars, you attempt to change the subject. You try to deviate from my question of you. In your deviation you implore the American Indian and “a few million abortions” as your response to my question asking why you dismiss the US Constitution. Specifically Congressional authority under Article 1, Section 8, “To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water”; correct ?

          How many troops have you had to hand salute as the bugler played TAPS over their coffin ? How many family members and wounded and maimed have you had to console ? Those of your ilk who support the sending of Americans to fight undeclared wars, are as responsible for the deaths and wounding of those troops as those you yourselves have pulled the trigger .

          Your comments and your off-topic response are irrelevant arguments to the subject at hand.

          “RULE 3″….it doesn’t always work Mr. IndyJones. Try again, but this time stay on topic, if you can.

          • indyjonesouthere

            How many troops have I had to hand salute as a bugler played taps over their coffin. Too many, but taps was not played as we were not in the rear area where we held the ceremony. Just rifles with bayonets and a pair of boots for each. Don’t try to convince me about how fucking hard core you think you are. I did my tour with the 101st during Tet. And you were talking about your “Constitution” and what it allows, right? You had better dig farther than Article 1 section 8, they bypassed that over a century ago. But you were present for the “right to privacy” on abortions, right? What did you do? We keep sliding further into the unconstitutional quagmire and you want to talk about unconstitutional wars when the most recent and continuing war is on the unborn. Have you attended a memorial to honor these slain? Every day they fuck over the Constitution and the smallest cost is likely the cost in soldiers lives. I volunteered for that shit but they will not be allowed to draft my family into service to their ever burgeoning debt, fucking retarded gay, xsexual, pedophilic, beastial lifestyle, Marxist environmentalism, feminist slutwalking, or positive rights movement. I am done supporting their Frankfurt school shit including the propaganda education system. Most of us here have likely participated in a war, knew the risks, and likely volunteered. How much of the rest of this. shit did I volunteer for? Well, none. And we have gotten all of it courtesy of the bastards like Church, Moynihan, and Humphrey. And that is off topic? My we have a small Constitution don’t we. We are still arguing the Art 1, sec 8 war long after it was lost. But we refuse to fight the battles right in front of us. fuckety, fuck and out.

            • Mr. IndyJones….holy shit Batman ! Have another doobie ! Odd how you like to address it as “your Constitution”. You swore an oath to “my” Constitution but you seem to be pretty hung up on trying to argue abortion.

              BTW….I’m not trying to convince you of a damn thing. I’m just tired of folks like you ignoring the questions. Changing the topic…..going spastic about off topic subjects.

              Have that doobie pal….it may settle you down.

              • indyjonesouthere

                The topic started as illegal intelligence gathering and you tell me I’m off topic when you changed the direction to illegal Art 1 sec 8 wars? Nice try yourself and I promise to not try to convince you of a damn thing either including the abrogation of the Constitution from beginning to end. Snort a line dude, that’ll mellow you out.

                • Mr. Indyjones….the fact of the posted essay/remarks is the discussion of involvement in unconstitutional wars, i.e., the Vietnam debacle. From the second paragraph I extract: “Who gives a damn about the South Vietnamese hanging in the wind? The world is full of presumed “injustices” and ‘Nam was just another shit hole that we should never have been in the first place. Find any legal justification for it in the Constitution, let alone in the writings published in either The Federalist Papers or The Anti-Federalist Papers. And just like now, I sure as hell never read a declaration of war against North Vietnam”.

                  Following the posted essay/remarks Mr. Dweezil the Weasel made comments @1716,29 AUG defending American military involvement in Vietnam. Following the Weasel’s comments were Mr. Townsend’s remarks supporting the Weasel’s justification of the United States involving itself in a civil war. An undeclared war. A war where America was not attacked.

                  Both the Weasel and Townsend made remarks where they supported the illegal and unconstitutional military involvement in of American, in Vietnam. My response to them was to chastise them and others for supporting and defending the violation of the Constitution. In the meantime they both consider themselves patriots while they support the unnecessary loss of American blood and treasure in undeclared wars. Like you.

                  • indyjonesouthere

                    And again DanIII the posting of the highlighted blue topics are on illegal intelligence gathering. If it is Vietnam that you deem illegal then there has never been a legal war fought by this country since 1812. The Lafayette Escadrille and American pilots in the RAF and CAF were fighting with the governments blessings long before a Declaration of war in WWI and WWII. How about all the wars stemming from the Chinese civil war that was nothing but a continuation of WWII? Taiwan/Quemoy, Korea, Vietnam and Malaysia. I find it interesting that the most controversy is always over Vietnam. That very question was what led me to study generational differences about wars and it took me straight to the Boomer generation. We have a Boomer type generation about every 4 generations. And each of the Boomer generations lives by the motto of “Do as I say and not as I do”. If you want to check other Boomer generations look at the Spanish American War and look at the Mexican war. Both were hated by the then “Boomer” generations. Hell, we’re still fighting both of those wars. Just ask the Mexicans. As I wrote further down, we are addressing less than half the problem and it surely isn’t illegal wars. It is Adams moral and religious people for which we fail to meet the minimum standard in order to have a functioning Constitution. We have not a single institution in this country whether it is religious, military, educational, political or any other that is not corrupted. The Constitution will not be held as a standard until that changes. Everything I mentioned in my above posts reflect all the current corrupt behavior that is showing up for the first time in our time. And what are we doing about it? Nothing, we are following the accumulated corrupting influences of our previous generations plus the corruption we allow to this very day. Other generations can be blamed for some of the precedents they allowed but why are we doing nothing about the precedents the government is setting now that are corrupting the culture even further? We can blame and rant about unconstitutional wars that have been going on for 200years and the moral shortcomings of those who made illegal wars a precedent but what are we doing about the corrupting precedents that have been foisted upon us ever since WE could do something about them? We. haven’t. done. a. damn. thing. Just like all the other generations.

            • Napalm Bodywash

              “And you were talking about your “Constitution” and what it allows, right?” What the fuck do you mean “your” Constitution???

              • indyjonesouthere

                The Constitution has come to mean what the hell ever the DC crowd wants it to mean. And Adams said the Constitution was only for a moral and religious people. It isn’t too hard to figure out that this government and the majority of its people left the moral and religious standard behind a long time ago. We are sucking on mere fumes of what is left of it. Just as the Constitution requires a moral and religious people, the Bill of Rights requires the right to keep and bear arms to protect it. We are not focusing on half the problem.

                • Mr IndyJones….as I told you before, several times, the remarks here and in the posted commentary made reference to the unconstitutional Vietnam War. It is no different now with the ‘stan, Iraq and soetoro-obama’s intent to use military might against Syria. Syria, that has done no harm to America. But folks like you support the use of America’s military to support the United Nations and the global elites.

                  Why don’t you read and re-read the several comments posted here by “JOHN” ? He is exactly on the money regarding these illegal wars that emanate from D.C. and the ruling elite.

                  There was a time when I appreciated folks thanking me for my military service. No more. All I ever did was to contribute to an imperialism of the United States that was never meant to be. And it appears to me that you, the Weasel and Townsend still subscribe to sending American blood and treasure to far off lands in undeclared wars. Am I wrong ?

                  And at this point I’m simply wasting bandwidth. As trying to reason with the unreasonable is simply folly. Time to move on Indy….no more replies to you. You’re unreasonable. What has been stated is done. Nothing more to be remarked upon.

                • Napalm Bodywash

                  I won’t disagree with you about the fact that politicians and largely the general puhblck skool edjewkated have given walking papers to morality. That being said, it is neither your Constitution nor my Constitution. It is our Constitution despite Washington DC’x best efforts to relegate it into antiquity.

  10. @ Sean, et al.

    The stinking Yankees had no right to invade the Southern states. A quick history of secession movements will clearly demonstrate that the first five all emanated from the North. Secession was correctly presumed to be a legal option of an individual state (or states) until Mr. Lincoln and his tax-grubbing cohorts unilaterally decided to the contrary and did so without congressional approval. Your great-grandfather was engaged in defensive war, a righteous struggle against empire builders.

    One should note that no more than 15% of Southrons were slave-owners, yet the Confederate States never had to resort to conscription. Mr. Lincoln’s war was extremely unpopular in the North and conscription was the only way he could fill his ranks. Draft riots were a regularity and the number of “Copperheads” rose as the war wore on. This is a man whose actions were deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, who declared Martial Law, suspended the writ of Habeus Corpus, jailed any journalist who wrote any screed against him; an absolute murderous tyrant of a man who has a monument requiring genuflection to him dedicated to his memory by the Empire.

    WWI? Both of my grandfathers were served up, one spending two years in a German P.O.W. camp after being shot down by the “Circus.” So what?

    That “Splendid Little War” was at a complete stalemate by the end of 1915. Woody Wilson’s campaign slogan had been, “He kept us out of war” all the while in the background machinations to change that were going on. Think international bankers, and while you are at it, ruminate over Wilson’s comment after signing the nations credit over to the enemy within:
    “”I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.” -Woodrow Wilson , 1913

    The U.S. population was rightly isolationist at the time and a trick was needed to change the psychology of the populace. Enter the Lusitania, a passenger ship. It was illegal to move arms and munitions on passenger liners so TPTB decided to sacrifice the ship and it’s passengers in order to involve the U.S. in a war in which we had no dog in. The Germans sinking a ship full of innocent Americans would sure as hell do the trick, right?

    German intelligence was fully aware that said ship was being loaded with munitions and notified the State Department that if it sailed they would sink it. The Germans even went so far as to write editorials and buy ad space in the nations major daily’s to warn the populace as to what was being done by our “leaders” and what they would do in response. Nary a one printed a single letter of the German pleas to not take the ship except for the leading broadsheet in Des Moines, Iowa, and it was printed on the day the ship steamed out of port. Lots of luck getting that rag into the hands of passengers loading in New York before the ink was even dry, eh?

    No internet, only 1.4 million radios in the entire country, no television, no nothing. “Only the news that’s fit to print”, and what was going to happen was not considered newsworthy because it was supposed to happen. Read Henry Ford’s “The International Jew” and you will understand why the editorial gatekeepers chose not to print the German warning. Given its manifest, sinking the Lusitania was legal. Do you believe that before the Doughboys crossed the Atlantic they knew what was on that ship?

    No. They “knew” the Huns were bayoneting babies in the BENELUX countries even though that was a damn lie. They “knew” many things that they were told by people who were about to use them as dogs in a fight we had no business in. That war would have been done and over with had we (parental admonition here) “minded our own damn business” instead of obeying our new financial masters.

    While you’re chewing on that, note that when Mr. Wilson had been president of Princeton University he had engaged in a little bit of a steamy affair. Folks with skeletons that can destroy them when those bones dance out of the closet oft times will do the most unimaginable things to keep that door closed and closed tight. A million dead here and a million dead there. Pretty soon were taking about real people, right?

    Since Stalin was mentioned in a earlier comment, it was that bastard who said, “One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.” That’s what modern war is, and the men who start them aren’t the one’s getting killed. The “statistics” are.

    You want to talk about WWII? Did you ever actually read Mein Kamph? So you know what actually happened at Versailles and during the inter-war period that lead up to 1939? Bela Kun? The Anschluss? The Danzig Corridor? The idiot Brits and French making a treaty with the Poles in 1938 knowing full well what the Poles were doing to German’s in former German territories would likely guarantee an invasion and then automatically charge their involvement? That we had been aiding and abetting that mass-murdering communist Josef Stalin since he seized power after Lenin’s death in 1924? That the N.Y.Times published article after article by Soviet apologist Walter Winchell during the interwar era and were a pro-commie front the entire time? Why did Hitler allow the 345,000 Brits he had trapped at Dunkirk to get away? Why did George Patton finally decide that we had fought the wrong people and after he mentioned that died/was murdered within the ensuing month? That F.D.R.’s economic actions against the Japs were by definition “Acts of War” and that he knew weeks in advance that Pearl would be hit (see Lusitania) as detailed replete with F.O.I.A. evidence in the book, “Days of Deceit?”

    My father was a “D-Day plus one” guy at Omaha Beach. After the war and college he spent 49 years in the Defense Industry doing things that you know about but I refuse to discuss. His considered opinion is that we had no damn business getting in that war, that Lindberg’s “America First” organization was correct and what American involvement did was make the world safe for Communism. That man knew so much that he has forgotten more than I’ve ever known.

    Me? “Next stop is Vietnam.”

    There’s a sucker born every minute and like deer, it’s the old bucks that haven’t been shot yet who are the smart one’s, right. The dead one’s are saps in a way. No “Gulf of Tonkin”, boys. L.B.J. made up a causus belli out of thin air so that we could have body counts, you know, Stalin’s “statistics”.

    Back when he was running for high office in ’64 and that once-run ad with the little blond-haired girl sitting in a field of flowers picking petals off a daisy with the Goldwater nuke going off in the background was being aired, that filthy, lying, murdering Texan said something along the lines of, paraphrasing here of course, that what was going on over in Vietnam wasn’t worth the life of one American soldier.”

    He was right. Not a one. When he left office in 1968 there were about 568,000 American soldiers “in country”, and by the end of that non-declared war we had some significant Stalin-sized statistics piled up on both sides. Helluva note. And he said this too: “I believe we can continue the Great Society while we fight in Vietnam.” Guns and butter, baby. Guns and butter. A Chicken in every pot and all that. Wars on poverty. Civil rights. Immigration laws changed. Everything going to pot. The beginning of the end. Cancers start one cell at a time.

    Gentlemen, there’s this axiom in police work that makes all the sense in the world. When you are investigating a crime and you have ruled out passion as the cause, what do you do?

    “Follow the money.”

    We’ve got problems here, “Big Time.” Usual Suspects. “Follow the Money.”

    • Mr. John….thank you for your remarks. You put it all together. Now if only others would heed your comments.

  11. Sean,

    That’s a great question. I guess at some level I honor the sacrifices of everyone who wears a uniform and makes the sacrifice to protect their nation. Even when the nation is misguided.

    Flip this around and think about WW2 era German soldiers.

    (I’ll assume for the sake of discussion that we agree that the Nazi’s were evil,and further stipulate that I’m not talking about the Generals planning the war nor soldiers running things like the concentration camps.)

    Were individual Germans evil to follow the rules of their nation? Many were second and third generation soldiers in the German Army? At what point does fidelity and honor require one to go against one’s own nation?

    Or, closer to home there is the American Civil War. Were both sides honorable? This is the consensus compromise we’ve arrived at in our civil discourse, but it’s an odd compromise. If your great grandfather was honorable in his service to the confederacy what about Joe Yankee’s great grand-dad who fought against him?

    You ask: How would you judge then, my great grandfathers service to the Confederacy, my grand fathers to WW1(he didn’t fight, he just almost died of pneumonia at Camp Riley), my fathers in WW2, ( wounded at New Guinea and Philippines, 3yrs total in PTO), me a year in Nam and yrs beyond that in the Army. Are we four generations of saps, who answered our country when it called, albeit for evil purposes? And you would do me honor sir, to list briefly your own sacrifices, in the uniform of our country.

    It’s hard to evaluate historical eras based on modern knowledge and morality. While Hans the German might have had a case for being part of the WW2 era German Army someone espousing Nazism today is rightly a paraiah.

    Knowing what we know today I would say that the Confederacy was a noble cause, WW1 was a pointless exercise that did more harm than good, WW2 was needed and the sacrifices awe inspiring, Vietnam a righteous fight where defeat was insured by the fifth column in the USA (including Frank Church), and the recent wars in the Middle East were poorly thought through and sort of ambiguous. Iraq seems to have been marginally successful in improving things in Iraq, Afghanistan a failure. Deposing the Taliban was needful vengence, the nation building that folowed questionable.

    At this point you have to accept that you are a moral agent and look carefully at where things are going. I have suggested to one of my very best friends who is a 20+ year retired vet and whose dad was part of the D-Day landings that the US Military at this point is no longer an organization that we should contribute our chlidren to.

    That’s a reluctant conclusion I’ve reached. You may reach a different one. But one of the things we do learn by going back and thinking about your anscestors is that following one’s nation into War merely because a war is begun is not always the wisest council.

    I guess my answer is hopelessly wishy-washy between the two extremes of “GO USA” where the US Army is the ultimate great moral force, all US Wars are honorable and needed, and service is the ultimate honorable decision and the counter-proposition of many leftists and also Libertarians and anti-Statists that almost all war is stupid and that being part of an Army makes you a dupe. I see it somewhere in the middle.

    “It depends”. Good topic for discussion and introspection.

  12. One other thought for consideration, particularly since what we are “taught” by our vaunted “public schools” are what those in charge of the great affairs of State wish for us to believe –

    “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” – Mark Twain

  13. Another freebie worth writing down from the mouth of Henry Kissinger:
    “Military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.”

    I suppose that could qualify as a definition of “Saps”, accidentally given to we lumpen by an official member of TPTB, one of “The Usual Suspects” I mentioned above. They, to a one, are just like blisters. They only show up after the dirty work is done.

    Regardless, the red, white and blue banners and flag-waving continues all around with John Phillip Sousa tunes playing in the background, finished off with Lee Greenwood’s “Proud to be an American.” “Mom, Apple Pie and Chevrolet.” “The American Dream.”

    Puffed up with delusional pride, we place hand over heart and recite the pledge written by Francis Bellamy, a defrocked Baptist preacher and avowed socialist who penned the piece as an advertising jingle for a flag company he was working for. And did you know that our first method of saluting “Old Glory” was exactly how the National Socialists did and we, um, changed the method in 1942?

    As Dickens wrote, “God bless us, Everyone.”

    Sales pitches all, and we’re still taking the bait, hook, line and sinker. Sousa’s America has been deader than dead for damn near a century, Lee Greenwood must have been drunk, drugged-out, hypnotized, or d.) all of the above. The vast majority of the last three decades of “mom’s” are hard-ridden, multi-divorced, bitter old feminist whores, the apple pie comes from Stouffer’s at the nearest Wal-Mart because mommy doesn’t know how to bake and wouldn’t if she could and Chevrolet is essentially government owned/controlled/managed.

    Enlist here! Get shot to shit for gay rights, feminism, set-asides, affirmative action (“the mind is a terrible thing to waste”), Miley Cyrus, Madonna, the N.B.A., Trayvon Martin and Obama Bucks if you’re the right color! See the world! Enjoy the life-long side effects of depleted uranium and wait for a year before the V.A. can see you for those symptoms that cannot possibly exist and “We’re sorry. That scholarship offer we made you? It’s still there, but things have changed …”

    “And it’s one, two, three, four. What are we fighting for?” See above. That’s the new “America.” The one crafted right before our eyes during the last five decades when we weren’t looking because only sick minds could have imagined such a thing, let alone created it. We’re not like “them” which is why it is so hard to understand why they do such things.

    We build, they destroy. It’s what they do.

    Normal people cannot understand psychopaths. Psychopaths understand us quite well. From birth on, we are the subjects of their study, being viewed as little different than organisms stuck in a petri dish. “Dumb animals”, so to speak. They are our eternal enemies as well as the fools from “our side” who choose to join them. Thirty pieces of silver goes a long way these days …

    God damn them to hell, all of them. If need be, seemingly more likely everyday, we will be giving the good Lord a helping hand in matters …

    • Wow…John you pretty much nailed it. Especially about the bitter-old whores….
      With age comes wisdom and what we learn sometimes aint pretty.
      “God damn them all to hell, all of them” pretty much sums it up.

  14. “Yes, you were a sap but a well-meaning sap.”

    Feh. You’re saying a sap is a guy who coulda woulda shoulda known better. By that standard, nearly everyone here has been a sap, most of our lives.

    A real sap is a guy who DOES know better. Personally I’ve never known a soldier who’s one of those, though I’ve met a few officers who went that route. “Thirty pieces of silver goes a long way these days …”

    Look at you, Dan. “If it’s declared by Congress, then it’s right.” So if Reid and Boehner give the say-so, suddenly it makes sense to start WWIII? I forget…is it Sunni or Shia on the side of the angels? Who’s the sap now?

    We’re both one-trick ponies, you and I, but at least I manage to spot the actual trick. And you’re gettin’ a little long on those comments yourself. It’s bad enough we’re all saps; no need to be a hypocritical one to boot. But I was touched that you care.

    IMO John’s last comment sums it up handily, especially this: “We build, they destroy. It’s what they do. Normal people cannot understand psychopaths. Psychopaths understand us quite well.” Spot fuckin’ on.

    So just keep fallin’ for it, Dan; maybe you’re the only one who’s not a sap. After all, the Second Founding Document says so, right?

    • Hi Jimbo, nice to see you could take a break from your posting schedule across the Internet.

      “Look at you, Dan. “If it’s declared by Congress, then it’s right.” Jimbo, why are you denigrating me by attributing remarks to me I didn’t write ? Can you please, PULLEEEEZZZE tell me where I wrote the remark “If it’s declared by Congress, then it’s right.” ? Oh and don’t pull a soetoro-obama declaring what you wrote is not what you meant.

      I wrote remarks in this thread challenging folks to their beliefs that war without Congressional approval is wrong. As the comments have run their course you suddenly appear and you make personal attacks attributing remarks to me I didn’t make and calling said remarks hypocritical.

      So before I venture into a fit of Klein-itis and pen more than I should, let me conclude that you’ve contributed nothing to this back-and-forth re: undeclared war, pro/con. For me you’ve confirmed what I determined about you some time ago i.e., when presenting you the educated definition that a toll is a tax, you became indignant and declared that said toll(s) are not a tax. Jmbo, you’re steeped in self-righteousness. Attempts to reason with you is meaningless unless it conforms to Jim Klein’s view of the world. But, I digress (Klein-itis).

      Perhaps in your self-righteousness you could grace me and others with your opinion of the legality and/or morality of sending American boys to fight wars, without Congressional declaration of such ?

      • It’s illegal, of course. And as you’ll be quick to point out, “What isn’t these days?” We agree about that. What you don’t get, is that it doesn’t make any difference. For all your talk about legality, you missed the Founders’ point; go read the DofI a bit more closely.

        So the point was rather about you addressing the morality of it, even when it is legal. That’s what Sean was asking about, and that’s where you brought in “well-meaning sap.” Here’s the question you forgot to answer…

        “So if Reid and Boehner give the say-so, suddenly it makes sense to start WWIII? I forget…is it Sunni or Shia on the side of the angels? Who’s the sap now?”

        Just answer it, and we can move forward.

      • And Dan, my intent is never personal attacks; my point is always about…well, the point. Let’s not forget that I’m the one arguing FOR the value of your life.

        Sometimes it seems, the only one.

    • Napalm Bodywash

      Mr. Klein. I’ve read your responses here and on several different blogs and I’ve come to the conclusion that you should change your name to Mary because your nothing more than contrary….

      • Cute. Maybe you’ll get some emails of congratulations. That’ll feel good, huh? Meanwhile, the gurgling you hear is your society going down the crapper.

        When you catch me in an error, please do shout it out. I’ll be very grateful. That’s how rational men are, see…we want to get it straight and BUILD. But hey, that’s got nothing to with America, right?

        Here, finish the line—“And it’s 1, 2, 3 …”

        If you can’t get it, see if the “well-meaning sap” Sean knows. For the other bullshit, try iwannabeinthegang.com.

        • Napalm Bodywash

          I don’t shout out errors. If possible, I privately email the person so they preserve their dignity. The issue I see with you, my dear Mr. Klein is that I can’t recollect you ever admitting you’re wrong. If you have and I missed it, then I will stand corrected. There was a discussion between you and this Dan III on another blog where you simply refused to admit that a toll was a type of tax even when provided with a dictionary definition of a toll as well as your slavish adherence to this Mises like market driven “everything” was quite maddening.
          Perhaps in the future, you can include some actual data, when appropriate, in support of your opinions rather than simply opining. You write very well, but with all due respect, your final word derived from your ideology isn’t always enough.
          Thus endeth the sermon…

          • “The issue I see with you, my dear Mr. Klein is that I can’t recollect you ever admitting you’re wrong.”

            If it’s any consolation, not being wrong can be a curse sometimes. Prescience even more so.

            Dan established with a dictionary definition that a toll is a fee, which is what I said. He also established that a toll is a tax, which is what he said. But see, I don’t care what the dictionary says anyway, cuz a thing is what it is.

            For me, I’ll be grateful if you shout any errors out. Not being a hypocrite, I can take it as well as dish it out.