Living Off The Land: Delusions and Misconceptions About Hunting and Gathering

Peter_AdamAndEveInTheGardenOfEden_th
A bucket of cold water in the face.

Needed for many.

Calories.

Got ’em?

For how long?

skulls-and-bones

59 responses to “Living Off The Land: Delusions and Misconceptions About Hunting and Gathering

  1. I take exception to the whole notion of 3000+ calories per day, just as I did with the posting done about this a few weeks ago. The reason people *need* 3000 calories today is because the mass produced food purchased today is lacking in genuine nutritional content. You have to eat more to get less. You are eating air and shit that you were never intended to eat and then wonder why you’re tired all the time, your belly is all the way out to here, and all your joints hurt. And you go through 50 rolls of shitpaper per month.

    25 squirrels per day? Really?
    Please.
    Tell you what, if you can shoot 10 squirrels per day, clean them and cook em up and eat em I’ll give you a fat C note for each.

    You have to wind down, reduce your needs, eat quality rather than quantity.
    It’s a system, not a thing.
    You can’t fix one thing and expect the whole system to change.
    You have to change the whole system, from the roots to the top of the trees where the squirrels live. You don’t need to change the world, you just need to change you, and that’s completely doable but you got to want it.

    When the bottom falls out of this thing called life a whole bunch of people are going to fail from the system constructed to make them what they are not.

    2 words: Get Real. srsly

    • If you are living on level ground and the temps are a steady 65degrees year round, I would agree that 3000 calories is excessive, but most people don’t.

      15 squirrels? if you read the article, they were using red squirrels which are about a quarter the size of a gray and maybe a fifth the size of a fox, so their number is about right.

      whenever i see an internet post about people bugging out to the woods to live off the land i see a future starvation corpse – them and millions of others.

    • Agreed. The essay is worse than useless, it’s in-your-face absurd.

      A variety of assumptions are taken as “fact.”

      For example, a person would need 3000 calories per day. Really?

      How, EXACTLY, is that derived. What is the assumed weight of the person, their physical condition? What constitutes high physical exertion? What’s the ambient temperature, and what is the person wearing? Metabolic characteristics also come into play. And this is just the first assumption (of many) that he made. And as I have just shown, his assumptions are worthless.

      My comment under the article:

      “A lot of assumptions throughout this article, most of them unsubstantiated. The end result is an essay which appears to have a solid, scientific basis, but in fact is useless. I read a lot of research papers which are based on solid evidence and data; this isn’t one of them.”

    • >>>>I take exception to the whole notion of 3000+ calories per day, just as I did with the posting done about this a few weeks ago. <<<<

      This is the first key assumption, but it's already fatally flawed. WHY? If you go by the caloric intake model, what is the assumed height, weight, sex of the subject? Why is the assumption that extreme physical work is always being done? What temperature and humidity? Can one even still use the Caloric Intake Model, knowing that is NOT all-inclusive, as most still wrongly believe? (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1014296?query=TOC&amp😉

      Just thinking about it, one can see that the caloric model fails to account for physical condition of the subject, metabolic characteristics, temperature variances and a host of other variables that render the model moot. No need to read further.

  2. You’ll starve playing by the rules. Effective means of harvesting game are outlawed because they are “effective”. Think; snares, nets, punt-guns, baiting, etc.

    • The point is that if you and 1000 others start using “effective” means of harvesting game then very shortly there will be no game to harvest. For example. Round my AO there are very few native trout in our vast array of creeks and streams. Most are farm raised stockers. The streams can support them but they are so quickly removed that they have no time to breed and restore the native population. People will literally fish right by the stock truck dumping fish in the water. The streams that are controlled access on private land have plenty of fish and the delayed harvest streams are also sufficently stocked. Once TSHTF the delayed harvest streams will be picked clean and the stock truck will no longer fill the normal locations. People will scour the streams with nets spears and bank lines and almost all the remaining fish will be gone. Then there will be no more fishing until the few hold outs can spawn way up in hollows and tributaries where fat ass spin fishers fear to tread. It would take years for the populations to get back into native balance and by that time a lot of people will be dead.
      Now expand that to include the deer and hogs in this area and its a bad picture. About 6 months worth of game and then its zombie time.

      • WHICH IS A GOOD REASON TO HAVE 1 YEAR PLUS OF FOOD STORES

      • If the bell rings in mid winter, the scenario is different than if a regional power grid went down, and stayed down, in June or on 01 October. I haven’t simulated it, but it seems obvious if Safeway is on a 72 hour stock rotation. Cold weather suppresses outdoor public behavior, esp. if they have to walk and don’t have comm’s or med’s.

        6 months to “empty fields and streams” seems optimistic. I would bet more toward 60 days, then only “long pork” will be harvested in the woods. The cities will be on a slightly extended schedule, due to the evacuation/deportation of non-essential personnel. MXS/SP people will eat a little longer, as they remain “essential”.

        Distance from population density can only increase chances of avoiding people-based problems that can not be reasonably mitigated by regulation or cubic-money beforehand. How about 3 people per square mile in your county and surrounding counties?

        • Which is why everyone should have a case of this magic potion:

          angry rooster sauce

          Wild pig or long pork, roadkill or rabbit, Angry Rooster Sauce makes the world a (marginally) happier place.

          • ^^ Best advice EVER. You can make just about anything palatable with it.

          • Semper Fi, 0321

            Go to Walmart or Dollar Store and buy a case or two of BBQ rub, on top of all the salt you already have stored away, anything will help later to make meat palatable. Hot sauce and BBQ are also needed, buy in bulk and don’t be too fussy over brands, unless you have the money to spare.

  3. For those who are thinking ahead, think back to the early years of this country. Food items like Pemmican (recipes available online) which contain ground dried meat, animal fat (high percentage), grains, and berries are high in calories and require no refrigeration. Good food source to learn how to make and tailor to your taste NOW.

    • Pemmican also tastes like armadillo ass…Just stick with regular jerky and stop trying to live like a fucking mountain man.

      • WELL, IF YOU MAKE IT OUT OF ARMADILLO ASS YOU ARE CORRECT IN YOUR STATEMENT. USE GOOD MEATS, SMOKED IF YOU LIKE IT, SEASON IT, ADD GROUND DEHYDRATED FRUIT LIKE BLUEBERRY OR RASBERRY AND IF YOU STILL MAKE THE ARMADILLO ASS STATEMENT I WILL START EATING ARMADILLO ASS.

      • BESIDES, JERKY DOES NOT HAVE THE FAT CONTENT WHICH IS WHERE THE CALORIES COME FROM!

        • Cool it with the all caps or I will start to think you are yelling at me about old timey meat recipes, which is retarded. My old kin folk didnt eat freaking pemmican. They ate salted ham, bacon, smoked sausage, lard, butter and chicken. Plenty of fat and protein in all that without resulting to that pemmican roadkill. I tried it. Dont like it. Will not eat it. Besides jerky, pemmican and other dried items like fruits and veggies are for mobility and not meant to be your stapple food source. They are to get you from one place to another where you have fresh food or other food that is preserved.
          Kill all the animals you want right now and preasure can them in mason jars and you will eat a lot better than dried meats.

          • Sorry about the caps. they’re second nature to me. my job requires i input information into a computer using all caps. hard to break out of when you use caps all the time. Can’t get into the habit of using the shift key now. you are right, to each his own, and pemmican was used extensively for travel, but also as a carry-over in hard times like the dead of winter so you could make it to spring. Anyway, good discussion enlightens all and gets the brain thinking about your particular needs, concerns, and fears.thanks for your input on this topic- i like all the different viewpoints.

            • I can’t tell you how many posts and emails I’ve had to revise because I didn’t take Caps off when leaving AutoCAD.

              • Semper Fi, 0321

                AutoCAD? You a draftsman?
                I studied on AC9 & 11, a few yrs ago.

                • Self employed architectural designer as well as many other things.
                  Currently using versions 2004LT and 2006 full, probably will never upgrade. I started with R12 back in 1994, prior to that nothing but ink on vellum (Crystalene) for many years.

                  • Semper Fi, 0321

                    I got a drafting degree back in ’92, I myself prefer the old paper or vellum and ink. The AutoCAD got to where I couldn’t keep up with the new revisions anymore, to me we are reaching a point of mental overload.
                    Now I’m working on an archaeology degree. The drafting has been a big help also with field sketches and mapping.

                    • Apparently drafting is not taught any more. I’m talking the old skool classics from the time of Vitruvius til CAD became popular. I’ve been working off of other people’s drawings for the past year for some local businesses and it’s appalling what is being put out by people that know how to push buttons on a keyboard but have no fundamental knowledge of basic drafting practices, thus rendering the entire set of drawings almost useless in the field. Poor drawings lead to cost over runs, change orders and every other kind of nightmare that can be imagined. Half of my job lately is just trying to figure out what the drawings mean before I can even start on the work I was contracted to do. I’m about ready to kick all of it to the curb. I’m all about designing, not fixing other peoples mistakes.

                      As you mentioned, a good basic understanding of proper drafting practices is invaluable for many different things, sort of like writing, cooking or sewing or other basic skills. It’s put a lot of money in my pockets over the last 40 years – started doing it for money n 1972.

            • No problem I got ya. My remarks are not directed really at you per se. Honestly I dont care what you eat as long as it keeps you alive. My real problem is that every time guys start talking about “prepper” type topics out of the backwoods come these modern day “mountain men” who have this romantic vision of living like Jeremiah Johnson. They spout on and on about pemmican, trapping and living off the land. I half expect one of them to tell me how much better their flint lock musket is than my .308. They typically do spew line after line about the advantages of wheel guns and lever actions.
              Now I dont have anything against the concept really and if one guy wants to take his family into the great frontier and live like that then rock on. My problem lies with the fact the there are fucking retards that preach this as a survival strategy in mass! If everyone did it then it would not be the great frontier anymore it would be just like your neighborhood you already live in. You said it correctly the best bet is to stockpile food that you are buying NOW before shit gets real.

              • My all time favorite flik, watched it when it hit the theater way back when and usually watch it on Thanksgiving day. Remember the scene near the beginning where he was nearly starving to death and was trying to catch a trout by hand in s snow covered stream? He looked up and saw the indian on the horse with a whole fleet of trouts hanging on the saddle. Attaining food was just about an all day job in that lifestyle. Best you can do now is try to learn to live with less and how to get what you need when things are scarce.

                • Semper Fi, 0321

                  I went to the Yukon in ’79 and worked in a hunting camp, spent the better part of the spring, alone, 200 miles from the nearest road. Knocked the fukn wind out of my sails in a hurry. I caught trout, and shot grouse, and almost starved living on bannock bread and peanut butter. Ever tried to eat beaver, the kind with the flat tail? Tastes like willow bark, could hardly gag it down.
                  I spent yrs going on primitive horse trips for weeks at a time thru ID,MT, WY, copying the old mtn men, but I knew that lifestyle was nothing more than a fantasy, having seen the elephant already.

                  • We almost crossed paths. Fed up with the world a friend and i went to Alaska in 1980 to live off the land. We went 200 miles north of Fairbanks to trap, fish and hunt. 2 months into it BLM (bureau of land management) showed up asking for our papers. Then, as now, the natives have priority over all the land, and we were not eskimo’s so we had to leave, or kill the officers and anyone else that ever showed up. We left, which turned into a whole nuther adventure. It was then, that I started realizing how un-free this country was in spite of all the hype. FWIW, in 1980 I traveled several different airlines getting to and from our destination in alaska and found all of them very accepting of the hardware we were carrying. On the trip back to Seattle, WA via Western Airlines I had 2 long guns in hard cases, 3 pistols and several hundred rounds of ammunition in the plane cabin with me, as well as a long knife on my belt and a couple of Buck folders in my pockets.. Try to do that now a days and they’ll shoot you on the spot.

                    • Semper Fi, 0321

                      A buddy and I wanted to go to Manley Hot Springs when we got out of the Corps, never happened. He got booted out early and I went back to Idaho ( I got out today, Oct 5, 1976), never saw him for another 27 yrs, when he showed up at my folks house.
                      I spent a few yrs working for Alaska and Wien Airlines in the mid 80’s, boy did we move a lot of dead fish and animal heads thru those cargo pits.

  4. Read Krakauer’s book ‘Into the Wild’.

  5. To ghost sniper- calories=Energy. 3000 calories in a five gallon pail of food is the same amount of energy as found in 6 oz. of food that contains 3000 calories. Makes perfect sense that 6 oz. of food is easier to gather and consume. Nutritional need for calory intake is a fact that is not negotiable. gotta have em might as well get them in concentrated form.

    • Look, most of the shit they sell in the grocery store is not food and it doesn’t have anything to do with calories except that more is less. Eating a 3000 calorie container of orange cheezy puffs is not the same as 3000 calories of wild squirrels. Both will fill you to the brim but the next morning you’ll expel most of the cheezy puffs but the squirrel will still be working the system, and your gutline will show the diff. Almost no one needs 3000 calories per day of *real* food.

      Proof?
      Go eat 3000 calories worth of wild squirrel in a 24 hr period and get back with us. Or salmons, raccoons, hyena’s, whatever.

      Here’s what will happen:
      Your system will shut down before you get the 5th squirrel down the pipe, but you still have 20 more to go. Then you’ll experience cramping like you won’t believe as real food forces it way thru your septic system like never before.

      Long term experience has caused your system to adapt to a condition it was not designed for and the results are the immense obesity throughout the country. People are eating bullshit and suffering the consequences. Rip away the shroud of deception and get back to reality and you’ll find these made up numbers are completely invalid.

      People will change when they are forced to and not one second sooner.
      The blue pill is doused in dense sugar.

  6. While I don’t agree with his daily caloric numbers, this is somethig that has to be considered as well if someone takes this path.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation

    As most wild game is very lean, humans require a certain amount of fat in out diet. Ignoring that fact can cause severe issues.

    Eat more bacon 🙂

    • Right.
      Here is part of the key, from that article:
      “….especially if the person switches to a high-protein diet without giving time for the levels of his or her hepatic enzymes to upregulate.”

      So you’re sitting there watching the game eating the same wheelbarrow load of trash you eat everyday then when the ballon pops you start stuffing your obese ass with squirrels and everything else you can get your hands on and the next thing you know you’re deader’n that warped dood that cashed his check in Alaska.

      It’s best to convert slowly over a long period of time, starting with your mind.
      Frankly, I believe it is the flavor of leaness that will turn most people off cause everybody has an overgrown sweet tooth. You won’t find much of that delectable *marbling* you’re so fond of in a squirrel or anything else that makes it’s living off the land.

      80% will be gone 6 months after the hammer drops.

  7. I didn’t agree with some of the article, but aside from the data quoted, the message is generally accurate. A point I’ve ponder locally is that the deer population, while thriving and potentially excessive now, were once extinct, and only recovered due to conservation by DNR/Forestry commission (not something starving people are good at). The fish in the rivers where everyone plans to bug out to are stocked, and would barely make it through to the next year with little to no natural repoplulation. Quickly the game that 2 million people plan to live on are gone.

  8. Ya’ll are right, of course, but instead of challenging each others needs, we need to be growing 1000 times more wildlife food plots so that those that need 3000 calories a day to change the channel and open their welfare checks, can be offset by those who need 1500 calories a day working a farm or ranch or estancia or whatever. It doesn’t matter what you need, it only matters that what you need is there when you need it! And, the problem is evolving. When the wild pig invasion moves far enough North to hit the democrat invasion, we will probably see yet another new species erupt. The pigs will add the ability to focus, think somewhat, and operate as a cohesive herd, to the democrat blood lines.
    So lets build more food plots for normal life forms now!

  9. Well now… Having actually done that(hunting-gathering) and not just read about it and studied the “numbers”. I think the boy is full of S***. I grew up hunting . I also grew up on 120acr. farm in eastern Ky. that we farmed with mules. We grew everything but coffee, salt and wheat flour. We worked 12-16 hrs. a day, Six days a week . What we didn’t grow we hunted. 3300 CAL. A DAY?!! HAHAHAHAHA!! Why I have known grown men to throw 70lb. hay bails all day long on a plate of “biskets in gravey” . THE REASON the old people were skinny(and lived to be 85-100) was they WORKED OFF more than they ATE. I don’t know what collage that kid studied at but he don’t know S***about real “survival”. By his lights my “long hunter” ancestors starved to death long before they carved out my family farm in 1770.

    • Yep. This does NOT pass the “sniff test.”

    • Jimmy the Saint

      “THE REASON the old people were skinny(and lived to be 85-100) was they WORKED OFF more than they ATE.”

      If you work off *more* than you eat for anything beyond a short period, you’re dead. It’s the Dachau Diet Plan.

  10. Local, local, local.
    Now is the time to find and meet small farmers in your AO. Buy their produce/beef/pork/chicken. Offer to help with fence upkeep, hay baling, or other tasks. Make a friend. Being Daniel Boone is all well and good but even he had a friend with a farm. Make friends, not enemies. Many farmers are as sick and tired as you are. Build a relationship where by you can ask and receive; don’t steal and kill – friends, not enemies.
    Local, local, local.

    • Jimmy the Saint

      “Build a relationship where by you can ask and receive; don’t steal and kill – friends, not enemies.”

      Who knows – we may actually see people being charged with rustling again. But then again, theft, pillage, and strongarm robbery have always been effective tools for survival, too.

      • You ask me, I’ll help you. You start killing my stock – we have a problem. Work with the locals, don’t piss them off.

        • Jimmy the Saint

          I agree that being polite and helpful is the best way to go for the typical individual, and it would be my approach of choice in all but the most dire of circumstances. It is not, however, the only way. Piracy and outlawry are pretty effective tools, too. Historically, guerrilla movements opt for both working with farmers and killing/robbing them – both are simply different tools in the same kit.

  11. Stories of “off-grid” landless wandering mountain men occasionally surface. These guys usually have some kind of anti-social phobia that is finally overwhelmed by the lack of food, wear of being cold too often, raging oral infections (teeth left?), and general suck. Some do last 15 years out there, and report that North America is a tough place without some infrastructure/family/store to resupply from and take the edge off. The one story I remember of a mildly successful guy was one who robbed campsites as a ghost for years. If there are no affluent food-rich car-camper people to loot, he’s done.

    I read the article, and find 3000-3300 calories a day a good target to plan for if you are working hard or traveling on-foot/bicycle in cold weather. Eating 4oz stick of butter like candy is what a person needs in really-cold weather to keep the core temp up. Butter is good! Add variety with chocolate and bacon. By “cold weather” I don’t mean +36F and wet, I mean 0F and colder, like when Jack Daniels #7 gets slushy or freezes in your tent.

    Reducing activity and exposure will reduce your caloric requirement, but “stuff needs doing”. +1 on dietary balance vs. bulk calories, but you won’t go from healthy to chronic malnutrition real fast if you take supplements and get anywhere near food. But, you will lose weight fast, and lose strength fast without enough calories.

    The solution is obviously to include trapping, including “bulk fishing”, as well as getting whatever meat that can be gathered with suppressed firearms. I believe the point of the author is to remind us of the empty forests of the 1930’s when people attempted to “eat off of the land”. Too many hungry people, not enough tasty animals or easy-to-gather high-density plant foods. We are the product of petro-farming and can be considered part of the population “overshoot” if the petroleum-input farming is somehow halted.

    When/if you get a big animal or a mess of smelt, how are you going to preserve it to keep eating next week? Got 250 quart mason jars per person in your group? 1000 one-use lids and 300 tattlers? The wimmin-folks have a ton of work to do to preserve your catch. Got efficient wood burners and multiple pressure-canners for batching? Hogs and chickens will help take care of leftovers and make fertile gardens. This is much less romantic than the buckskinned wildman with a rifle in the woods with a pack. Division-of-labor is why minimum survival group (tribe, band, family) size is about 20 functional adults in a long-term SHTF situation.

    We are talking about years/decades, not weeks. You can just starve for a couple weeks and be okay with water until you make it back to the Kwicky Mart on Hwy 12. .

    Cheers.

    • Thank you very much for your unsolicited testimony of approval about our family’s Kwicki Mart.

      Regards,

      Apu

      So many lovely children to feed for so long. Thank you for shopping at Kwicki Mart.

    • Semper Fi, 0321

      I live in the center of mountain man country, this was a favored wintering ground (for all of it’s 20 yr history) due to the mild winters here. The Indians wintered here for 10,000 yrs + also. But the key ingredient missing today are the vast herds of buffalo, there are many buffalo jumps around, we even have a mammoth/camel kill site not too far away. They would harvest tons of meat to dry and make pemmican with. And a large kill would last them a few months, supplemented with fresh rabbit, deer, antelope, grouse, prairie chickens, fish, etc, then time to hunt and gather again. For some reason, elk don’t show up much in their diet.
      The plants growing here (camas, onion, biscuitroot, etc) in the mountains require thousands of little roots and bulbs to be picked from the soil, cleaned, dried and stored, much like a rockchuck would store away. They did not harvest large vegetables like cabbage and potatoes. They had the system down to an art, we don’t.
      Even if you think you’re Cody Lundin, you can’t do it. Living off the land is not the same as gardening, where you dig your plots every year. Other locations all have their own issues, but unless you live in the southern US, you’ll starve.
      Folks have learned way too much from Hollywood, and will die when they realize it won’t work in reality.

    • “Division-of-labor is why minimum survival group (tribe, band, family) size is about 20 functional adults in a long-term SHTF situation. ”

      This man had the skills and a lifetime of experience, but couldn’t survive alone.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishi

  12. Larry Elliott

    Living totally off the land as the natives did before Europeans arrived was relatively simple and easy. LOTS of game, and not too many people. A band of Indians could get enough meat to last most of the year by running bison off a jump and butchering like crazy until the stench from the dead bison was too much and that they couldn’t cut up and smoke or dry was left to rot. With 300+ million people occupying the same land that a million (maybe) did 300 years ago, and no great herds of bison, nobody’s going to be living off the land for very long at all. Those who say they do, and obey the fish and game laws likely spend most of their time hunting and fishing on land they know like the back of their hand. Most don’t have the time, skill, or abilities to do that, and those that do will find mighty slim pickings with everyone and his cousins out trying to get as much meat as possible. Ain’t nearly enough to go around.

  13. I think I’ll go put up another couple hundred pounds of beans and rice…..

  14. My comment got a bit long winded, so it’s posted up at my site….

  15. Larry, Natives “living off the land” is an American myth. Before 1492 most natives FARMED and farmed well. Peanut ,hot peppers, beans, potato’s corn (maze) and squash were all native crops. Before it was burned by Kit Carson the Navajo had one of the largest orchards in America. WE learned farming from THEM, NOT the other way round. The great orchards in upstate New York were planted by the seven nations, NOT the white man. The list of native farming achievement is long and almost forgotten . Hunting was at best a part time occupation before the white man brought horses. Most of them lived along rivers and few wandered far on “the sea of grass”( Note that most “buffalo jumps” are “clovis old” or within a few days walk of a river. They are also RARE) You should also note that whites found VAST mounds of Salt and Fresh water shells near EVERY pre-1492 native town and city east of the Mississippi.( it was the PRIMARY protein ) They dug most of them up . Hauled it away to cook down for lime morter for the(white man) stone houses found everywhere in the eastern US before the civil war. The Myth of the SAVAGE HUNTER is how America justified it 500 year Genocide.

    • Semper Fi, 0321

      Ray,
      I think you are steeped in mythology yourself. And I think I’m being kind in that regard.
      Yes, the Indians farmed, across a good portion of this continent. Farming was also practiced in Europe and Asia, long before we arrived on american shores. We white folks did not learn it from Indians. Just picked some good veggies and took them back to Europe, where they flourished.
      I discovered a bison jump about 8 miles from my house last summer, it’s probably 500-2,000 yrs old, not even close to Clovis age (10,000-13,000 yrs ago), and it’s on the banks of a river. Multi-layered, showing many yrs of use. We have many bison jumps here in Wyoming, and they are found in every type of terrain, rivers having nothing to do with their location. They are also not rare, I can show you several near where I live.
      What you are describing is mostly eastern history and has nothing to do with the other 60% of this continent.
      Your grasp of history and Indian culture needs a bit of revision, work on it please.

      • Fair point about the farming, but surely you’re not implying that the Injuns were just some backwards communities that were lucky enough to have guys like “Mad Anthony Wayne” save them from their misery, are you?

        I’m a huge fan of Ayn Rand, but this was one of the things she had very, very wrong. Ray had this much right—“The Myth of the SAVAGE HUNTER is how America justified it 500 year Genocide.”

        • Semper Fi, 0321

          Where did I imply they were backwards communities?
          They were anything but that. A very complex community system, trade and barter from almost coast to coast, roads crisscrossing the continent too. East, SE and SW had the most complex road and trade systems, the west and central US were mostly nomadic, but also traded heavily with each other. We have Yellowstone obsidian found all the way to the Mississippi.
          I just pointed out that Ray is rambling on about things he really hasn’t studied well. Most folks have a wealth of mythology in their heads, as opposed to actual history and facts.

    • Thank you, Ray; it’s a great untold story, for exactly the reason you say. And contrary to the “no property savages” image, I know some of the west coast tribes had genuine capitalistic-type market systems. Maybe unfathomable properties like the earth or the oceans were “owned” by great spirits somewhere, it was clear AND RESPECTED who owned what, here on Earth.

      There might have been arbiters…but thugs to steal property, no.

  16. “80% will be gone 6 months after the hammer drops.”

    Thank. God.

  17. Cache, cache, cache, cache, cache, and… CACHE!

    Maybe you last a year or two on your rural retreat, or MAYBE you’re the first nail the fedgov hammers down, forcing you to run for your life and starve in the forest. You’re here, aren’t you, visiting this infamous website? They have plans for you.
    Hoping for a Rawles style collapse instead of a Bracken type depression?
    Wishful thinking born of a lazy mind that wants to leave that 10 kilo bucket of rice in the basement rather than hump it out to the woods and bury it three feet deep.
    Wake up and get real. There will be no sudden collapse. Rawlesian dreams of a hard reset followed by a “cowboys and indians” civil war are childish fantasies. You WILL be forced to E+E if you want to live and/or alter the outcome. Cache like your bloody life depends on it.

    • “Cache like your bloody life depends on it.”
      ======================

      Yes.
      But do so at a great distance from all others.
      If you don’t, peril will find you, and quick.
      Simply, even if you do have 1,000,000 rds of ammo, you can’t pull the trigger fast enough to stop all the drones that will be attacking you to get your cache. Having it is one thing, keeping it is another.

      • Definitely. When I talk about caching I’m typically referring to small drops that can be concealed on a single hiking trip and retrieved in their entirety quickly and quietly. No return trips.
        Place them along various exfil routes and as outliers to hidey holes.
        Think “nomad” not “settler”.
        Of course, the hardest part is having the guts to be honest about when it’s time to leave your nice, warm country retreat and head for the hills.
        I’m lucky in regards to having a relatively poorly funded Leo/Mil arm in my country along with a crapload of docile, edible wildlife about, but the Golden Hordes are an ever-present threat if the shit hits the fan.