WeaponsMan: After The Draw

kel-tec-p32

WM looks at an incident in FL.

I was taught not to display unless it would be used, and used decisively.

Just remember: “Is it worth it?” is a question that s/b asked and answered before any defensive weapons use.

Many times, it is not.

52 responses to “WeaponsMan: After The Draw

  1. I was taught, by my retired prison guard instructor, that if you pull a gun-use it! Never pull a gun to “threaten” somebody. Never pull a gun and then argue with someone. And above all, never try negotiating with a gun in your hand. Was this wrong?
    The mentally ill in this country are destroying an assemblence of civilization. I don’t care about being politically correct. Reagan did us no favors by closing mental institutions.
    Full disclosure: I think that all of this saving of marine animals is nutty. Nature cares for her own. But I’m not shooting anyone over it.

  2. In the post-Travyvon America, self-defense is the only real crime (besides disrespecting the tyrants), and the powers that be will make you that YOU AND I who defend outselves with deadly force, not the God-hating, lawless thugs that attacked us, will pay for it, in money, possible jail time, and ruination of our lives and good name, and probably our families’.

    Drawing a gun? Most of the time, the answer is “it is not worth it”. I definitely would not defend someone not in my family or immediate circle of friends. Are they going to come up with the $100,000 – $1,000,000 to defend me in court? Are they going to replace my weapon that the police most assuredly will take, and allow to rust and ruin in a musty evidence room, or will be “lost” (pocketed by a cop), never to be seen again? Are they going to protect me when the media makes me into the latest George Zimmerman, to be stalked, shot at, and attacked at every turn, while the media gleefully reports each attack, as if I deserved it? When every black cop that pulls me over and realizes who I am wants to just shoot me in the face and get it over with?

    The answer is no.

    Trainers like Massad Ayoob and Andrew Branca make every effort to convince their readers and students that YOU WILL LOSE should you defend your life with deadly force. Even if you are released by the police without charge, even if you are no-billed by the grand jury, even if you are declared innocent of any charge, YOU WILL STILL LOSE, because the civil suits will come from the defenders of the lawless thugs who attacked you. And even if your state precludes civil suits in cases of self-defense, it doesn’t matter– they will mark you down in their little black book, and they will get you. If they have to send a chick to accuse you of rape, if they have to off you in a dark alley, if they have to use the media to ruin your good name; they WILL get to you.

    The powers that be need to stop self-defense, because self-defense (per Heller and McDonald) is the raison d’etre for carrying a gun, and even gun ownership, and they cannot allow the subject populations to be armed.

    I still carry, because there might be a direct threat to my or my family’s life that I have no way out of except to kill the attacker. But I will seek every way out before I even draw my weapon. I will even allow myself to be shot or wounded before drawing and returning fire. I might be killed, but if I am, at least my family will have my life insurance. If I live, the media and the powers that be will destroy not only me, but my family as well.

    • ” I will even allow myself to be shot or wounded before drawing and returning fire.”

      IMHO, you’re certifiable.

    • Jimmy the Saint

      “But I will seek every way out before I even draw my weapon. I will even allow myself to be shot or wounded before drawing and returning fire. I might be killed, but if I am, at least my family will have my life insurance.”

      That’s straight up insanity. If the attacker drops you, he’s the only one who gets to tell the story of what happened, and guaranteed, you’ll be painted as the aggressor – i.e., you went for your weapon first, and he acted in self-defence. Like as not, dying during the commission of a felony probably voids your life insurance, so your family would lose out on that.

      • “The firstest with the mostest usually wins”. That applies to bullets as well a brigades. My long ago next door neighbor, a highway patrol officer opined that never leave a perp alive.

    • outlawpatriot

      No civil suits allowed in Florida as long as the shoot is righteous. It’s called the Castle Doctrine and has been expanded to include anyplace an individual is allowed to legally carry outside of home and car. We have some banned places of course, but not many.

      The prosecutors give it a wide berth too. I’ve seen shootings that I can’t believe are called righteous with no charges being filed. One of our customers shot and killed a mentally retarded kid through a locked sliding glass door. The kid was probably just confused. It was late at night and he lived in the neighborhood. He was also unarmed. I was sure they would prosecute the dude for that one, but they didn’t.

      The law was just recently expanded again to allow display to deter a possible attack. The old man in the story utilized that new aspect of the law. Unfortunately, it is apparent that he had very little and probably no training what so ever.

      Guns are like constitutions. Just having one doesn’t guarantee squat. You gotta know how to work ’em. 😉

    • Allowing yourself to be shot and potentially killed (including your family) does not sound like a great idea. That sounds like the tyrants system is winning though.

    • ghostsniper

      “I will even allow myself to be shot or wounded before drawing and returning fire.”
      ======================

      You should spend some quality time alone with your brain on that one.
      As Josey Wales said, “Dyin’ ain’t much of a livin’ boy.”

    • Engineer,

      I have been the recipient of the charge of “self-defense” by the .gov. The responding badged thugs exclaimed “you don’t have a mark on you !”. Once in the courtroom the judge told me, scornfully, “You’re bigger than he is !”

      You are most correct in your remarks. They WILL get you and the “rule of law” will not protect one. The powers that be will redefine and twist the English language to suit their need to punish you. Look at the dead U.S. Constitution and how that has been twisted and bastardized over the last 200+ years. The law before the court gets the same treatment.

      We are in deep shit in this country. Longggggg before the Martin incident.

    • I guess that’s why Andrew Branca makes such a big deal out of 21 feet. I’ve read Branca and listened to him a lot, and I didn’t even come close to that take-away message.

    • “I will even allow myself to be shot or wounded before drawing and returning fire. I might be killed, but if I am, at least my family will have my life insurance.”

      What family? You mean the one that was just sodomized and murdered because you allowed the POS to draw first blood? F that. Kill with extreme prejudice when a bad guy attempts to do you harm.

  3. Brings to mind Tuco’s famous comment: “If you have to shoot, shoot – don’t talk.”

  4. A .32 caliber Kel-Tech as a defensive tool is well, better than nothing, I guess, but….

    Defending sea turtles is also not what I consider worthy of drawing a sidearm. Leave that for the badges, federal or otherwise. When the gun comes out of the leather (in this case the pocket) it should not be for the purpose of negotiating. A stern command voice directing an attacker to; DON’T MOVE! is what is required as your last words to an attacker. The next option is entirely up to the attacker.

    • I read it that he drew his weapon because the younger dude assaulted his buddy.

    • ghostsniper

      “A .32 caliber Kel-Tech as a defensive tool is well, better than nothing, I guess, but….”
      ==========================

      All 6 right in the face point blank.

      • Don’t draw it except to use it and don’t use it except to kill.

        And yes, as drdog intimated below—it’s the sort of decision that ought to be made beforehand, not in the heat of the moment. Further, speaking of who owns you…being a case where you alone know the decision, any dishonesty may kill you.

        Works for me.

      • I’ve never heard anyone allege that .32Auto is a one-shot-stopper, but a magazine of close-up rapid-fire hits could be distracting, same as a bunch of .22mag as a self-defense round.

        Plenty of lessons in this story. Turtles are food.

        • Jimmy the Saint

          “And if whatever you’re shooting doesn’t die after you pump eight thirty-two caliber slugs into it, it’s probably a dragon.”
          – Sterling Archer

    • “A .32 caliber Kel-Tech as a defensive tool is well, better than nothing, I guess, but….”

      Nobody wants a hole in them.

  5. Revising and extending my remarks, at Backwoods Engineer.

  6. He should have flashed a concealed permit holder badge instead.

    Cheaper than dirt sells them.

    • Jimmy the Saint

      Good idea, but it could expose you to charges of “Impersonating an officer”. Still, as a tactical move, it might by you a couple of seconds while the other guy ponders….

      • Spot on there…you better not try that badge down here.
        “Brandishing” is red letter on the CCW permits and statutes down here also.

      • Was being sarcastic. I think they’re some of the dumbest things ever thought up.

  7. Thirty five years ago we had a large ex-con in our church named Smitty.
    A guy named Ray (former congregant of the church) was harassing a couple of members outside after services. Smitty walked up to him and said: “Ray, you’re scarin’ me. And when I get scared, I never know what I’m gonna do next”. Best example of diffusion I ever saw.

  8. The WTF-look on Pannaman’s face tells me all I need to know.

  9. https://youtu.be/3vaC6jCIyLottps://youtu.be/3vaC6jCIyLone key point I noted also in the article was a situation where you pulled your weapon and as a result, the situation was diffused and the perp walked away, you should still report the incident to LE. That’s in case the other person calls LE with a different story on what took place. In doing so, your immediate call will likely save you from charges levied against you as the aggressor.

    I also found the following video very informative should one find themselves in a self defense situation where you did have to shoot a perp. It shows many aspects of a post shooting scenario that could literally show your defense of self was justified and possibly save yourself from legal issues as well as being mistaken for an armed assailant which could lead you into catching an unintended bullet. I’m sure this would also justify a YMMV scenario.

  10. NightWatcher

    I see “calling 911” as AT BEST a double edged sword.

    The argument is that the “law enforcement establishment” can protect you and control a situation. This is some serious flawed logic.

    First, the “authorities” have no obligation to protect anyone (but themselves). Their idea of “controlling a situation” is reminiscent of “kill everyone and let God (the courts) sort it out. I see no upside here, unless a report being generated is more important than the possibility that responding officers might kill you.

    I’m sure there will be many a straw-man, but I see calling 911 as an act of desperation.

    • There are an awful lot of people who called 911 and regretted it. “There is no human situation so miserable that it cannot be made worse by the presence of a policeman.”
      –Brendan Behan

      • spot on. I no longer call 911 for anything. I either avoid “situations”, or take care of them myself. In Darrel Steinberg’s Mexifornia – no Castle, no Stand Ground – they’ll criminalize you if you so much as look sideways at a thug

    • Watcher,

      If you call “911” you better be prepared to give those assholes a specific street name and address number of your location. Good luck calling them.

    • “I see “calling 911″ as AT BEST a double edged sword.”NightWatcher | July 21, 2015 at 16:38

      For you D&D players, 9-1-1 is a “saving roll” that may go terribly wrong with snake-eyes. Flying great white sharks with laserbeam eyes and MRAP’s.

      The non-emergency line is the one to call after the incident ends, best called by your attorney for the purpose of filing an official report. It will be so boring and “over” that it will be filed unless someone was hurt.

      Got video? Vest-pocket cam (cell camera?) or helmet cam, or even an audio recorder (cheap Olympus digital Pearlcorder, or other tiny thing), will allow you to transcribe a description for the report that is very accurate, without turning in (or showing) the electronic version.

  11. Hmmm, if you pull that piece you better be prepared to use it. If not dont bother. I’d go further to say if you don’t carry some trash bags and a saw then leave it home.

  12. Marlo Stanfield

    If I as 72 I would be at a more private beach with a young female CNA. Not playing nurse maid to some silly ass turtle. Handgun chambered in 32 Auto? Unless I was carrying a Walther and role playing for said young female CNA, nope. Regardless of your physical fitness level age 72 is the time to have a properly trained security dog around you. Specially outdoors. The only time I bring up being a Vet is if it gets me a discount. I served over 10 years and there was nothing I learned from Uncle Sam that makes me special when it comes to gun handling or self defense. Living off base while in central America may have made me more aware of my surroundings. But honestly I learned that skill growing up in a trailer park and having criminals for kin. And since for than 50 seals have been killed in recent years, perhaps this habit of boasting about what unit you are in needs to cease. Our elites are getting dropped by 10th grade goat and sheep herders who did not receive millions of dollars in training. Or have pick of the litter when it comes to weapons and gear. The closer I get to those golden years the more I will gravitate towards the Range Rovers, Browning Hi Powers, tailored suits and field clothing from Filson, LL Bean and other top shelf brands. Might even go with the FN P90 and some of that $400 dollar a box for 50 rounds of that Special 5.7 mm ammo. (kidding) Won’t pay $400 for 50 rounds of ammo that fits in a pistol. A few ladies who have spent years at a Cross Fit will also make great outdoor companions.   From: Western Rifle Shooters Association To: marlostanfield53@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2015 10:03 AM Subject: [New post] WeaponsMan: After The Draw #yiv7393715097 a:hover {color:red;}#yiv7393715097 a {text-decoration:none;color:#0088cc;}#yiv7393715097 a.yiv7393715097primaryactionlink:link, #yiv7393715097 a.yiv7393715097primaryactionlink:visited {background-color:#2585B2;color:#fff;}#yiv7393715097 a.yiv7393715097primaryactionlink:hover, #yiv7393715097 a.yiv7393715097primaryactionlink:active {background-color:#11729E;color:#fff;}#yiv7393715097 WordPress.com | Concerned American posted: “WM looks at an incident in FL.I was taught not to display unless it would be used, and used decisively.Just remember: “Is it worth it?” is a question that s/b asked and answered before any defensive weapons use.Many times, it is not.” | |

  13. For the average person one has to ask one’s self, do I have the Will to kill? Not during or after an attack but before it begins? For any normal person I would suggest it is not easy as most Americans try to avoid confrontation. If you are honest with yourself that you can’t consider the shoot as a preventive measure then don’t bother. Save the cost and time involved and roll with the punches.

  14. [“Almost every night our people are dealing with people who are rude, aggressive and pursuing the nesting females,” he said.]

    Sheesh, can’t people find more useful things to do with their time?

    [When he heard the report and knew it was a real gun, he immediately stepped toward me, went down, then he says, “Are you alright? You alright?” I said, “Sir, you shot me. How could I be alright?”]

    Must be the understatement of the year. 🙂

  15. I prefer to avoid the Monday morning quarterbacking. It’s not unreasonable to expect an assailant to run like Hell when you pull a gun; most do. Well, at least he only got shot with a mouse gun…

  16. Pistol drone:

  17. Yup…..be aware of your surroundings, try to break or avoid contact if you can, if someone approaches you and assaults you and puts your in fear of injury or death, shoot. Keep shooting till the threat disappears. Then call 911, tell them you have been assaulted, were in fear of your life and that you shot your attacker and you believe he is injured and you will now administer first aid till the authorities arrive. This will all be taped at the dispatch center to help cover your ass. Stress the “in fear of my life” angle throughout your ordeal when dealing with the police. Say nothing except along those lines. Do not try to explain the whole incident, just stick to the basics of “I was in fear for my life” routine. The less said the better.

  18. Call LEO and tell them that I have a gun. Yeah, that should work out just fine.

  19. If the receiving end is left alive, it’s their word against yours. If the receiving end is dead, it’s your word against … a corpse.

    There are methods in CQB that teach how to fire and still maintain retention.

    Two huge fuck ups! One from each member of the confrontation.

    Everyone I trust indicates that, no matter what the circumstances, the use of deadly force is going to have negative consequences for your life. Few exceptions.

    • Jimmy the Saint

      “If the receiving end is dead, it’s your word against … a corpse.”

      Depending upon your ethnicity and that of the corpse, it could well be your word against the full might of the media, the social justice warriors, and some ethnic grievance industry.

  20. Keep shooting till the threat disappears. .30-’06 | July 22, 2015 at 08:09

    Early episodes of Star Trek have “disintegrate” as a hand phaser option. It took so much power they switched to “stun”.

    The quote I remember is “Keep shooting until the target catches fire or changes shape.”, with reassessment during re-loads. Apply first-aid after it’s safe to do so.

    “stop” is the word to use as your objective. As in ” a lawful stopping”.

  21. Alfred E. Neuman

    Reblogged this on The Lynler Report.