MDT: Thoughts On Recruiting Prior Service Members

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JC (a/k/a “Smiles”) starts the discussion.

Continue it in comments.

69 responses to “MDT: Thoughts On Recruiting Prior Service Members

  1. European American

    Message to the Military

    • outlawpatriot

      I got a minute or so into it then had to shut it off. It’s a bit much. But thanks for sharing. 🙂

  2. Nothing tunes a BS detector like several years on USAF active duty. My EPR writing Buck Sgt. tried to recruit me for Amway, without luck. What an education.

  3. PS or NPS ?

    My experience continues to be that prior military service means LITTLE in the potential fight against Leviathan. Less than 1% of all fUSA citizens today were employed (“served” as in self-serving) by fedgov’s military. It doesn’t mean much to the Liberty movement that some citizen wore the robes of the fUSA military. Hell, I know a 32 year old 75th Ranger Regiment guy who is 35#s overweight.

    My surveys of the working Millenials wearimg the robes make comments that they are executing “self-service” for the good wages and college benefits. Not for the Constitution or Freedom or Liberty. Hell, today’s troop is simply a mercenary for the unconstitutional regime of barry barack hussein soetoro-obama.

    Today’s effed up Army is more concerned about their bullshit diversity and SHARP training than they are the Spirit of the Bayonet !

    “Hey Sarge, I’m just in it for the college money”. Can’t tell you how often I heard that remark.

    I’m not overly impressed with the common slob Millenials calling themselves prior, ahem, “service”. In general they leave much to be desired. They are lazy, slovenly, and stand for little in the realm of the Constitution. If one is looking for Freedom lovers and Believers, you’re best to look at NPS or PS born before 1980.

    Of course the above is my opinion based on past and current experience, FWIW.

  4. Now you see smiling does make a difference.

    My ancestor joined his county militia after this act was passed:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_Ranger_Act

    They were initially combined with militias from other surrounding counties. This entire group was later renamed/renumbered in the Confederate army and they lost the Partisan Ranger name. They started the war with about a thousand men from over half a dozen counties. The highest ranking officer was a colonel supported by a mix of about a dozen LTCs, MAJs, and SGMs. The regiment was divided into 7 companies each led by a single captain.

    Partisan Rangers still sounds cool.

    • I love reading Confederate Partisan history.

      • Something to consider between then and are population changes. A county of little over 10000 could send a unit of 100+ able bodied men off to war in the 1860s. The same county today has a population of nearly 70000. Should be 700 men in a unit now. Given entire state NG units combined are less than 10000 that shows where things are at now. Of course civilian police forces are not part of that count.

        • Jimmy the Saint

          There were more farmers and tradesmen back then – that gave the county a bigger organic supply capability than most today. Granted, today’s counties are wealthier, so they could buy more/better equipment and supplies. Local meedical care is definitely superior today.

  5. Alfred E. Neuman

    Reblogged this on The Lynler Report.

  6. The Man looks perfectly harmless. LOL

  7. ghostsniper

    It ain’t about what you were, it’s about what you are.
    Prove it.

  8. While you are at it stay far, far, FAR away from any idiots like the ones in this story.

    http://sputniknews.com/us/20150817/1025820445/fbi-undercover-arizona-militia-drug-charges.html

    If you hear anyone making the slightest noises about something like this that is your cue to GTFO of their company RTFN and forever. I know of two similar groups that had very similar plans near my A.O. They will reside in a federal penitentiary for the next couple of decades. The Feds LOVE running this type of scam/hrrrmmmuuumph… I mean undercover operation. Do not fall for it.

  9. Marlo Stanfield

    If you can find HONEST prior service members you might be okay. I was active duty from 1980-1991 and honestly I was a tourist. Even when stationed in Panama I lived off base in Panama City miles from my base on the other side of the canal.  Nothing was going on. Even when I went down to Bolivia it was an embassy supply run. We weren’t even armed. Dropped of some armored civilian vehicles and parts. No drama. Even when Desert  Storm kicked off I was in New Mexico in a training Squadron. Training squadrons don’t get deployed. Specially when half your aircraft are not mission capable. You have to ask the right questions or you will get misled.  Most people think if you say you were in some foreign country that you saw combat. Question and question again. Find out what kinds of meds they are on, OR should be on. Any habit they have now will only increase during an extended emergency. Figure out where you want to be when shit hits the fan and start checking out the people who already live there. See who survives the shit has hit the fan event and see if they are capable of carrying on after that. Finally make sure the people you pick have very stable personal lives. Happy stable relationships now. No one going thru divorce procedures, custody battles.     From: Western Rifle Shooters Association To: marlostanfield53@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2015 6:34 PM Subject: [New post] MDT: Thoughts On Recruiting Prior Service Members #yiv1408752993 a:hover {color:red;}#yiv1408752993 a {text-decoration:none;color:#0088cc;}#yiv1408752993 a.yiv1408752993primaryactionlink:link, #yiv1408752993 a.yiv1408752993primaryactionlink:visited {background-color:#2585B2;color:#fff;}#yiv1408752993 a.yiv1408752993primaryactionlink:hover, #yiv1408752993 a.yiv1408752993primaryactionlink:active {background-color:#11729E;color:#fff;}#yiv1408752993 WordPress.com | Concerned American posted: “JC (a/k/a “Smiles”) starts the discussion.Continue it in comments.” | |

    • No one going thru divorce procedures, custody battles.

      On the contrary, these men are the most likely to have seen behind the curtain and understand the sheer evil behind the leftist/marxist platitudes oozing from every seam of the establishment. You couldn’t ask for a more politically reliable group (individual outliers notwithstanding). Help them back on their feet, tutor them with a little “game” theory and a sense of abundance, inspire them with mission, and then you have something.

      Tom

      • Amen to what Tom said, the current system is designed to destroy families and it works very very well.

        Watch the movie Cartel Land (that is if you can possibly find it in a theatre as the number showing it is abysmal). Great example of what can and does happen to ‘movements’.

  10. hank scorpio

    Boy do the 90s “patriot movement” holdovers get butthurt when they’re called out…and in my experience with that crowd(similar to Dodge’s), they’re more concerned with making excuses than putting up or shutting up, sprinkled with a healthy dose of wanna-bes, never coulda-beens, and low hanging fruit for the ATF. In my personal experience, these types seem to be the guys who just never can pull it together, always been someone else’s fault. Most of you come off sounding like that High School football star who just never made it.

    “Today’s effed up Army is more concerned about their bullshit diversity and SHARP training than they are the Spirit of the Bayonet !”

    Pogs, yes. Obviously you haven’t walked through an Infantry Company lately(or the last decade or so, or EVER) as you’d definitely feel a strong pushback against BN standdown day. It’s not our fault we were subject to that crap, but it definitely goes out the window as soon as the rep goes back to their affirmative action safe hole. Indeed the situation from the top is getting worse, an no one likes it, most quietly talk about Civil War and the coming troubles, but as some one said once concerning the SF Underground, “you only fall on your sword once.”

    “I’m not overly impressed with the common slob Millenials calling themselves prior, ahem, “service”. In general they leave much to be desired. They are lazy, slovenly, and stand for little in the realm of the Constitution. If one is looking for Freedom lovers and Believers, you’re best to look at NPS or PS born before 1980.”

    Based upon what exactly? I concur that a large portion of society leaves much to be desired, but when have they not? It wasn’t called the III% for nothing. All of the Infantrymen I had the pleasure to lead served a certain set of values, made from a similar mold as I, and shown what right looks like and led in that manner, just as I was from the better of the NCOs and Officers I served under. When it was my turn I emulated that leadership. And for those who don’t make the grade…their ass got chaptered. Guess what…concerning the local Kernel of the XYZ militia types…we’re not overly impressed with you either. It works both ways…and my CIB speaks for itself. Where’s yours?

    The thing is, it takes a certain amount of gumption to sign up knowing you’re going to tote a rifle in another man’s land. No one I’ve met did it for the “college money”. There’s 211 other ways to secure that. Bottom line- We know what right looks like. We’ve manned up more than once, and stepped into the breach beyond pretend land. And until you’ve wrote out that 9-Line to send up for your buddy who’s laying there relying on a couple tourniquets to hold what’s left of his blood in his body, with your bell still rung and hands shaking, don’t judge that Ranger with a little extra in the middle. Because he’s got a little extra to deal with every day, and got a little bit bigger balls than you. And he earned the right to do whatever the hell he wants. But he’ll also be the first to do it right once this fun kicks off, and deep down you know it. Those with a problem with what said here are those who don’t like facing reality…that being that those who will do something, have done something already. Lead from the Front.

    • Scorpio,

      You take a LOT for granted in your response to my remarks. You have no clue as to what or where I’ve been or what I’ve done. But evidently I’ve ruffled your commissioned feathers, eh ?

      “No one I’ve met did it for the “college money”.” Oh really ? Then you’re asleep at the wheel. They’re not doing it for patriotism, nationalism or the Constitution as written.

      “Because he’s got a little extra to deal with every day, and got a little bit bigger balls than you.” Damn Scorpio, you make a lot of assumptions. But, then again you’re so typical of a commissioned officer, an effing know-it-all.

      Seems to me you should be practicing what you preach there Scorpio. Your assumptive whining and sniveling is exactly what you yourself just remarked on: “Those with a problem with what said here are those who don’t like facing reality…”

      “If the shoe fits”, eh Scorpio ?

      • hank scorpio

        You attack the person, and not the premise. Pretty typical response of the Walter Mitty crowd. I could care less what your background is…based on what you said, you’re lost in the sauce or have a chip on your shoulder. I made no assumptions, I stated facts and responded directly to what you said.

        Seems you’re the one ruffled up a bit. Good. Seems like JC gotcha going as well, hence your comments. I’m a former NCO as well btw, taking advantage of that college money I obviously only signed up for.

        Tango Mike!

        • Do yourself a favor dude. Start a small business and be the best in the field. I never even bothered with my college benefits. Instead, I started a mobile truck wash after the service. I was making a grand a day in ca$h right from the start back in the late 80’s. Then I branched out into other ventures. By the year 2000 I didn’t even have to wake-up in the morning and I was making more money than most professionals. School? Work? LOL No thank you.

        • Scorpio,

          “I could care less what your background is.” Oh, but you DID care what you believed my background was/is when you flapped your keyboard:

          1. “Obviously you haven’t walked through an infantry company….”
          2. “….my CIB speaks for itself. Where’s yours ?”
          3. “….he’s got little bit bigger balls than you.”

          Damn Scorpio, you must have “mispoke” eh ?

          “We’ve manned up more than once….”

          Ask yourself, contemplate, seriously contemplate….FOR WHAT ?

      • “My experience continues to be that prior military service means LITTLE in the potential fight against Leviathan. Less than 1% of all fUSA citizens today were employed (“served” as in self-serving) by fedgov’s military. It doesn’t mean much to the Liberty movement that some citizen wore the robes of the fUSA military. Hell, I know a 32 year old 75th Ranger Regiment guy who is 35#s overweight.”
        1) Thanks for the most ridiculous statement of the day. That sounds like pure “Pogue” BS, and is one of the most unrealistic, self serving things I’ve heard in a while. Hate the mil much? I’m sorry it was soooo hard on you and your delicate sensitivities.
        2) Don’t transfer your own reasons for joining the military on others that have served, and done it proudly.
        3) It is probably true that “It doesn’t mean much”, and that’s part of the problem, if they asked, they’d probably be helped.
        4) And I bet you still wouldn’t talk shit to his face, would you? Unless it was on a keyboard, that is.
        As far as the college money thing, that seemed to be more of a “Pogue” thing, than a Combat Arms thing, in my experience.

        • Dodge,

          Here’s a not-so quick rebuttal to your remarks:

          1. “Thanks for the most ridiculous statement of the day.” Hmm….can you be specific as to what statement I made that you found ridiculous and why ?
          2. I joined the military because I always appreciated, and still do, military history. I didn’t join for Mom and Apple Pie. Secondly, it’s good you’re “proud” of your self-service. You most likely beam with “pride” every month when the Eagle shits your retirement check, eh Dodge ? Nevertheless, you put up with the bullshit from commissioned officers for 20 years, so I grant you you earned it. Just remember to thank a taxpayer for paying his taxes if/when some citizen thanks you for your….ahem, “service”.
          3. Sorry Dodge, but your #3 above I don’t get. Can’t rebut it. Clarify if you care to.
          4. “….wouldn’t talk shit to his face, would you ?” Are you referring to Scorpio’s ad hominem attacks against me ? Or are you suggesting that I wouldn’t verbalize my earlier written response to your pal Scorpio’s face ?If so, why wouldn’t I verbalize to him, face-to-face, what I wrote ? Are you insinuating my manhood is in question; that my testicles aren’t quite as big as some dumbass’ nuts who jumps out of a perfectly good aircraft ?

          Regarding college money/bennies…. better dive into the history books circa post World War II. Research “GI Bill”. Lot of combat arms WW II
          vets went to college on “college money”. Back when a college degree meant something. Today, those college degrees are offered to folks who can’t lace their boots or provide the answer to what12x5 equals. But I digress.

          Dodge….I hope you take time to reply. This is FUN ! !

          • Dan Not III, your idea of “fun” (self gratification) is not what this, or any other discussion, is all about.

            Few comments hereabouts do less to further the process than your hissy fits of self importance and divisive, braying jackassery.

            Your perpetual pussy hurt, foot stomping, pursed lipped, reading comp (fail), ad hominem (fail) screeds do nothing to enlighten Us Great Unwashed Ignorati, but serve only to illuminate your own, er… issues.

            No one, who visits here regularly, is more full of themselves than you and no one is more full of shit.

  11. outlawpatriot

    If I’m pickin’, I want a militia unit with a defined rank structure. And I want that rank structure to be the same as the rank structure in the United States Army. Leaders of fire teams are sergeants, their assistants corporals. Staff sergeants are squad leaders and SFC’s are platoon sergeants.

    Once you get a solid platoon together, maybe you might have a lieutenant as a platoon leader. No sense in having anything above those ranks in my opinion unless you can actually have an entire company fall in and dress right. Then maybe you have a captain. That next officer rank would be a long way off. It would take three solid companies to form a battalion. Then you might have a lieutenant colonel. I’ve never seen a militia unit that big. But it would give me a woody to see it.

    Again, if I’m pickin’ I would prefer prior service. If nothing else, they understand the basics and have functioned in a military system. The more that have been shot at the better. That said, I’m not denigrating anybody that hasn’t shouldered a weapon and stood a post, it’s just that I think having a bunch of well experienced guys would be invaluable if the thing were to really go tits up. I’m also not saying that there aren’t prior service that aren’t worth a fuck. There are. I know. I experienced more than my share of malcontents during my eight years in the army. While I was forced to deal with them then, I have the luxury of not having to deal with them now.

    As for unit names, all of the units I’m acquainted with down here have chosen some variation of “field force”. My unit is “light infantry”. I think a militia unit should stick with the more traditional naming that our history provides. Choosing a name that alludes to something you’re not is just silly. Coupling such silliness with having colonels and generals makes for one of those militia expose’s you see on the tube. Not good. Not good on so many levels.

    • I’m with you on that

    • Jimmy the Saint

      There’s another structure that works pretty well, too:
      Boss
      Underboss, consigliere
      Caporegime
      Soldier
      Associate

      Regardless, form will necessarily follow function, at least to some extent. Rural areas can field real squads/platoons/companies. Urban areas will likely need a structure more like the IRA “Active Service Unit,” or the mafia, at least initially.

  12. I think historically the rank of Captain is well grounded in the Militia.
    I would speculate that since most units would not be larger than a Company anyway Captain is very appropriate for a unit leader.

    The thing is that you can use rank to denote time in the unit and keep that separate from duty assignment. If we had our shit together rank would also denote the level of training you had received, but lets keep goals actually something we can get to…

    • Time in service and training being applied towards rank, only goes so far. Just because someone starts a unit, doesn’t mean he should lead it (he be the highest ranking guy according to the “time in unit theory”). Just because someone has training than the guy next to him (maybe he could affort more carbine courses), doesn’t mean he should out rank him. Who knows he.might be a better leader. After initial ranks (Private, PFC, etc.) Rank is (or should be).based on ability (how they apply the training they’ve had), and leadership .potential (what has he done with small tasks he’s been.assigned to do). Non Commissioned Officers and Officers are leadership ranks, not merit badges

    • outlawpatriot

      Well, actually, it was common to appoint a colonel for a given county, parish or region to raise and train an associated militia when ordered to during the 18th century. Most of them commanded no more than a couple hundred at any given time. Colonel William Campbell of Virginia commanded probably one of the largest militia units in the south with 400 men.

      Not with ya tying rank to training. Rank should be based on ability to lead. Not only lead but have the ability to make good decisions and employ available resources to accomplish missions. Training can be rewarded with things like tabs. For instance, we have Rifleman 1, 2 and 3 tabs.

      • @OP – Common sense rooted in history. Imagine that. 😉

        Anyone trying to re-invent the wheel is demonstrating critical-thinking deficiencies.

        • No, It’s not about “Reinventing the wheel”, it’s about people who’ve never driven (or maybe driven a bicycle), making out like they’re a Nascar driver. It’s about respect for those before us, and not being a “Wanna be” by riding on the reputation of their name and deeds, just to get members or students.

          • ‘Reinventing the wheel’ wasn’t referencing your post, which makes several good points, particularly about Ego getting in the way of efficiency, proficiency and The Mission.

            Reinventing the wheel does speak directly to a very large group of people who like to think their .Gov ‘Certificate of Participation’ is the only valid path to knowledge, experience and competence on a topic.

            Real Leaders do not give a whit about rank, or status, DD-214s or college degrees or what color one’s Krav belt may be. They care about getting the job done. When the job isn’t getting done, Leaders find work-arounds and continue the grind – while non-Leaders quibble about rank and fault and blame and yadda yadda.

            Your post is quite correct – there are way too many people focused on the wrong details.

            • SFC Steven M Barry USA RET

              Enlighten me with you leadership experience.

            • “Real Leaders do not give a whit about rank, or status, DD-214s or college degrees or what color one’s Krav belt may be. “

              Real leaders do care about span of control, unity of purpose, ‘staying in one’s lane’, and submitting to that authority above the leader to ensure mission success.

              There is one very important intangible those items you mention provide anyone contemplating following that ‘real leader’: They are substantial indicators experience based upon usually long periods of training from those who’ve ‘been there, done that’ aka “schools” providing the foundation necessary for completing a particular path to skill mastery once out in the field. Credentials aren’t everything, to be sure, but they sure do give one an idea of what the person attempting lead others has in the way of generally accepted recognition (from a group of subject matter experts) for a particular achievement. “Almost” having a degree in Business won’t get the same pay offer as having an accredited degree from a recognized institution, no matter how ‘savvy’ the applicant is, just as being an ‘acting jack’ NCO for a short time before being returned to previous duties doesn’t indicate the same level of expertise that a NCO currently leading a team possesses.

              Discarding one’s experience gained from long years of training, subsequent achievement of various levels of mastery, and ‘hands on’ leading of teams ranging from four people to literally hundreds is a significant problem when one is attempting to build something, say, a NPT, because most folks, no matter how well meaning, are never put through the necessary training required to be successful as a leader.

            • Usually, the people that don’t give a “whit” about rank, status, a DD-214, college diploma, or a colored belt from a martial art system, is due to never having it, and no understanding of it. As Max likes to say, “They don’t know, what they don’t know”.

              • +1
                There’s a lot of “club” mentality around here. Prior service vs non-prior service. Infantry vs support. SOF vs Conventional. Deployed vs non-deployed. EIB/CIB vs CAB vs watching war movies on teevee.

                The associated military paraphernalia helps to establish bona fides. You can’t inflate your service record without having a piece of paper to prove it; things like deployments, achievements, schools, and awards. (One needs to look no further than the various Stolen Valor websites to find out that you will get exposed.) No matter if you served four years or 25, your DD-214 and honorable discharge make you a part of the “club”, as far as proving your service goes.

                Some people are jealous of the ability that military members have to say, “Here’s where I was, here’s what I did, and I have both the brothers and papers to prove it.” Those who want that ability, but lack it, are the ones who most frequently complain about it, but they have no one to blame but themselves.

                If you’ve never served, it’s easier to talk a good game and oversell yourself (like one of those kernels). If you’ve never been to Ranger School or the Q Course, it’s easy to day dream and do the shoulda-woulda-coulda thing.

                If these folks have never actually done the things that they’re trying to train people to do, then they’re going to have a difficult time when someone shows up who actually knows what he’s doing. Frankly, these people are going to get embarrassed and it can’t happen soon enough. I think that’s part of what you’re getting at, JC.

                • Culper is correct – the club mentality is working both ways to the detriment of the Mission. The ‘Kernals’ are just as guilty as the ‘my DD-214 is better than your DD-214’ .mil folks (and I can’t find much redeeming at all about .Gov employees.)

                  Some ‘Kernals’ will never become useful except as fodder. Some of the DD-214 measurers are the flip side of that same coin. And in all the noise, real opportunities are being lost.

                  • The club mentality is there for a reason: so we can vet the folks who have experience from those who have no experience, i.e., those faking a resume in order to profit (financially and/or ideologically).

                    Don’t be so quick to disparage veterans. There’s more real world experience in one deployment than you’ve gained in a lifetime.

                    As for the detriment of the mission, you’ve left too long a wake of closeted skeletons and burnt bridges to be lecturing anyone about putting the mission first.

                    • Culper: You’ve never seen one instance where I disparaged vets nor can you cite one – I have on occasion disparaged the actions of individuals, whether they are vets or not. Big difference. Once more you run off-topic with a gratuitous assertion. That is a tactic most of us recognize…

            • Three responses by .Gov ‘credentialed’ commentors – all three addressed the ranks/tabs/status/college degree aspects, yet failed to address the point of ‘getting the job done.’

              Having .Gov credentials should not rule anyone out of anything. Nor should having .Gov credentials imply efficiency, proficiency, or even competence/common sense on any topic. In our current climate one could make the argument that currently accepting the King’s Shilling is problematic to intellectual honesty and division of loyalties.

              The job needs to get done. When you have the wrong people in the wrong positions, a Leader replaces/re-positions the people until the job begins getting done. There are serious, smart former .mil ‘Quiet Professionals’ working alongside our current generation of ‘Glorious Amateurs’ – and people are measuring one another in real-time, not plumage.

              The noise is coming from outside those work areas.

              Once again, Max has been proven correct: You don’t know what you don’t know.

              • I said, “Real leaders do care about span of control, unity of purpose, ‘staying in one’s lane’, and submitting to that authority above the leader to ensure mission success.

                Ensuring mission success, by definition, is getting the job done. On my watch, we were taught that from day one. I’ll let others speak for theirs.

                Conflating military experience/credentials with ‘.gov’ is disingenuous, even if unintended, because the military is an entirely different culture with different values down in the units where leadership is taught and experienced than in the vaunted halls and departments/agencies of “.gov”.

                Nothing wrong with amateurs; they’re what future professionals are in their early years of skill mastery.

                As for making the false claim that accepting earned retirement/disability/pension funds for services already rendered under in Good Faith in compliance with the specifications of that contract could indicate divided loyalties…that’s where we part ways and the discussion ends.

                Good day.

                • Tom – you are correct – I did not articulate .mil retirement/disability is wholly different than the .Gov bureaucrat taking a paycheck or the FSA taking a monthly check in my above comment. My readers – and you – know my position is far more nuanced.

              • ” In our current climate one could make the argument that currently accepting the King’s Shilling is problematic to intellectual honesty and division of loyalties.” Since we are talking about intellectual honesty, or the lack thereof, I find it “Problematic to intellectually honesty” that a guy who wanted to “earn the king’s shilling”, and might have made a career out of it if he hadn’t been disqualified due to health issues (what you said in your blog), would have anything to say about those who did pass muster, and can collect a paycheck for “services rendered in good faith”. You would have been in the same boat, had you been allowed entry, correct? You said earlier ” Reinventing the wheel does speak directly to a very large group of people who like to think their .Gov ‘Certificate of Participation’ is the only valid path to knowledge, experience and competence on a topic.” Please enlighten us with the “Certificate” that you have earned. When it comes to military martial skills, please tell me where someone gets that experience, (especially combat experience) other than through military or government service? So you read a book or two about bad asses, good for you. You won’t gain competence without experience, even if it’s just the day in, day out experience of the training the military goes through, and a weekend or two or three at one of our tactical classes gives a small amount of competence, but a huge boost in confidence. We are still talking about Martial skills and leadership, not canning peaches, right? Here’s something I said a while back in a post about Combat Leadership, since I’ve actually done it, “Combat leadership is not about tough talk, it’s about responsible decisions. A true leader makes responsible choices, not irresponsible claims. A combat leader is DECISIVE. Decisiveness evolves from experience. Experience comes from training. Making good and bad decisions during training is how combat leaders get experience outside of combat (When training junior leaders, their bad decisions were better teaching moments for me). Seeing that you make good decisions in training breeds confidence in your decision making ability. Although reading histories and advice from experienced leaders can make a leader better, it does not create a leader. Being well read without application (use in training or combat) of those principles makes you a military history professor, not a combat leader. Keep that in mind the next time you see a “Keyboard Commando” saying what they will, or will not allow people to do when things go hot.” We have done it, you have not. We know what we’re in for, you do not (except from what you’ve read). We have LEAD, you have not.

                • JC: Good Faith .mil service is far removed from other .Gov service – as I have held at length, for years. As to what you think you know about my experience – what you don’t know would fill volumes. Since I am not campaigning to be your ‘Leader’ and you are not interviewing me for such a position, enlightening you would be pointless. Just keep collecting your weekly LEO paycheck and training people on your off-weekends, and you’ll be fine. 🙂 You had a decent conversation going – you let it devolve to a personal level. Too bad.

                  • So let me get this right. You downplay that validity andmerit of three guys, two of which you know for sure are retire military, then, when confronted with it, you backpeddle and say “I just meant people other than .mil? Volumes huh? I’ve read volumes like that, “Lord of rhe Rings”, Chronicles of Narnia”, we call it fiction, when there’s nothing in reality to base it on. As far as”enlightenment” goes, you’ve been asked by several people to “enlighten” them, concerning your background, Leadership experience, and you’ve completely avoided it. Now to the “personal comment. You mentioned I got “personal”, by mentioning that you said you where kicked out of basic training for lying about having asthma and being color blind on your blog. That’s not personal, that’s a fact you put out on a public forum, and was used to make a point. “Personal”, is when you disclose my “Day job on a public forum, after I told you I don’t talk about it on the blogosphere or social media out of concern for my family’s safety. That was the definition of personal. So since you knew that, was that your way of sending an implied threat?

                    • JC: I don’t downplay the validity of the service experience you and the other two have – I find your dismissive behavior of those who don’t hold .mil ‘pedigrees’ that meet your personal standard to be a serious flaw in critical thinking.

                      Enlightenment of my experiences: Much has been publicly shared on my own blog and in my published books. Other details I have shared with a few people I consider to be worthy of that knowledge. You aren’t one of those people.

                      Personal: You didn’t ‘get personal’ over my being ELS’d – I published that years ago. You made it personal when you started attacking Kerodin rather than defending the principles of your original post. Again – you let emotion about me derail a topic that was worthy of discussion. We’ve seen it before, we’ll see it again. If Kerodin was offering to teach combat patrols, any potential student would have been well in-bounds to ask for my combat patrol credentials in the context of this post. Since I don’t teach such skills, you slipped off the rails.

                      Your day job: Aside from the intellectual honesty of the issue, we had that discussion on WRSA about a year ago. I don’t think there is any reason to revisit – but that’ll be your decision…

                    • .. Mil pedigrees that meet my standard? I could care less about someones “.Mil pedigree” I’m more worried about their character. I can teach them what they need to know in the Martial survival skills, changing an adults character, not so much. I really could care less what your background id, but you might have an easier time with the “show me” crowd” type of possible students or allies, if you didn’t make your description of your background sound like an ambiguous romp through a Van Damn movie. “Worthy of knowledge” People you deal with as an instructor and. Organizer do deserve to know what gives you the ability to say, “that’s right”, “don’t do that”.
                      Personal? You take issue with me mentioning something you wrote on your blog, even though the reason for it being mentioned was to point out the irony in you speaking ill of .Mil guys, when you could have been one yourself had things turned out different. You mentioning my day job had nothing to do with the post, or comments for the post. It was not appropriate, and done with malice, not making a point in mind. As far as a WRSA discussion between you and I, I truly don’t remember such a discussion, do you have a link?

                    • JC: Do I have a link? Do you have Google? No, I will not pollute this site with links regarding this beef you’ve had with me that dates more than a year. I am under no obligation to asterisk, footnote and cite every snippet of past exchanges for the general audience. But for the record, yes – I do have the links – and the emails, and the chat logs, and more.

                      You can see my comment to Bergmann below – your day job is your business – I did not out you, and I bear no responsibility for any of the bad choices you have taken in life.

                      The utility of this discussion (between you and me) ended long ago, I suggest we walk away now.

                  • Just keep collecting your weekly LEO paycheck ..

                    What a Dick and crybaby thing to post online.. Sad that’s all you had left to use.

                    Bergmann

                    • Bergmann: Intellectual honesty is always fair game. And – that is by far not all I ‘…have left to use…’ if pushed. You are watching me in warm & fuzzy mode. 🙂

                    • No, you’re very wrong. Regardless of all the bullshit posted here and other places when you guys do your dick measuring contests, and whether you wish to acknowledge the fact of the matter, that’s his family you put in the light when you go to his career/livelihood in LE. That with other simply procured bits of info can be clued together to bring nefarious intent to his door. There is nothing heroic there. If you want to appear so superior you should send him an apology and thank him if he excepts it. Taking the high road and admitting you did wrong, along with steps to correct and own the transgression is the true measure of ones character and personal constitution. The opportunity is yours. You getting pushed out of the Army has nothing to do with some Black Lives Matter, NBP or other radicals shooting his house up because you ran your mouth online about personal info.

                      What baffles me is that you post on your front page that you’re (and I assume all of us are) being watched etc-etc-etc. Either you think that’s bullshit and posted it merely for posturing attention or you really dont care what could potentially happen to his family all because you lost your cool and went well beyond personal in a stupid internet fight. It cannot be both.

                      That is all.. The filth of this all is contaminating…

                      Good luck to you both.
                      Bergmann

                    • Bergmann: Sorry – I bear no responsibility for the safety of any mans family who publicly self-identifies as LEO, self-identifies as a ‘Sheepdog’ online, while pinning a name tag onto his uniform shirt every day he goes to work for the entire world to see while writing anti-LEO screeds under that same name. And when said man comments publicly that I have some inappropriate behavior or conduct to hide, (That happened a year ago, on this blog) well – anyone who can’t do that arithmetic is beyond my ability to help.

                      You may call it dick-measuring. The reality is that the process is IFF.

              • wirecutter59

                “Having .Gov credentials should not rule anyone out of anything. Nor should having .Gov credentials imply efficiency, proficiency, or even competence/common sense on any topic.”

                You’re kidding, right? When I was in back in the late 70s and early 80s, the testing we had to take in our MOS (Military Occupation Specialty for those that decided not to serve their Nation) was a bear compared to the testing we took to graduate from training into that MOS.
                And guess what? If you didn’t pass, you were gone. Those that scored highest were given a chance to advance, those that passed but were in the bottom of the pile stayed at the bottom of the pile.
                You’re right about one thing though. Those credentials don’t imply efficiency and proficiency, they flat out SAY that this particular individual is proficient, efficient and professional.

                • No, I’m not kidding. I smoked my ASVABs and did my boot at Ft. Knox – and it goes without saying that just as anywhere, in any organization, you have people who excel, people who do average, and people who suck.

                  Graduating your AIT says little. How well one performs over the course of your service, carries weight. And all that reflects what was, at some point in the past – not necessarily the person you are now.

                  This thread has revealed an ugly tidbit about some former .mil folks.

                  I’m just glad the .mil snobs are a distinct minority – because without .mil in our Liberty Forces, we’re fooked.

                  • wirecutter59

                    Uh, marines did boot camp, soldiers did basic training. Anybody that’s ever been in the military knows that.

                    • And it’s official – absurdum has been attained.

                      We’ve got real Patriots on this very site trying to put together a project(s) to teach others how to cook for large groups, getting minimal support from the commentariat and even the broader community – yet all these “Leadership Experts” and “SMEs” on this thread invest hours trying to convince The Internet that their Certificates of Participation are what matters.

                      Absolutely fascinating.

            • wirecutter59

              If they don’t care about rank and status, they should.
              If I choose to undergo training, I want to make sure that the instructor has met the met the standard of those who designed the standard – the military. As far as rank goes, in the military rank is awarded to those that have proved that they can do their job, particularly NCOs. If they can’t do their job, they don’t advance.
              Simple as that.

      • SFC Steven M Barry USA RET

        Appoint? Well, yes. Some well heeled Lodge member could bribe a commission out of the Governor to raise a company financed out his own pocked so he could puff up his community standing. But it wasn’t a “hey you” detail as implied by “ordered to.”

        And who makes the decision, “…ability to lead?” That implies a superior chain of command able to assess such a talent, let alone determining that “good decisions” were made.

        By what authority do you award tabs?

        S//

        • SFC Barry,

          By what authority do you award tabs?

          Awesome general-purpose question.

          A couple of decades ago, Microsoft was having trouble getting acceptance for their OS and applications with dotcoms, dotmils and dotgovs before there were dots. To give decision-makers warm fuzzies, MS started a series of Microsoft Certification programs, where people would demonstrate proficiency in installing, configuring and using various Microsoft products. Their software was still buggy crap compared to the Unix and other desktop alternatives, but now it was buggy crap installed, configured and used by certified crap-lords, also known as unpaid salesmen hoping people would buy off on their certifications and thus gravy-train, at the expense of competing better products. Brilliant move, and it worked. Why make a better product when you can more cheaply convince people it is the better product already through social proof? Go Murica!

          Ultimately, tabification is all marketing by who(m)ever has something to sell (whether it is buggy crap software, Napoleonic ribbons, or join my team warm fuzzies) and how many people they can get to buy off on their legitimacy.

          Maybe there needs to be a tab-maker tab, which confers the authority to grant tabs. I’m sort of kidding here, but that is really the question you are asking, I think.

          This is a tough nut to crack. Certification is a useful tool, but unfortunately it is often most effectively applied by the best marketers.

          Caveat emptor.

          Tom

        • outlawpatriot

          Funny you should say that Sarge.

          After the Boston Massacre both sides took a step back from the brink. To Samuel Adams’ chagrin many patriots, John Hancock specifically, cooled their relationships with the more radical faction led by Adams. Governor Hutchinson sought to take advantage of the situation by courting Hancock to join the Governors Council. After repeated refusals by Hancock, Hutchinson offered him command of the Boston militia despite the fact he had absolutely no military experience. Hancock jumped at the offer.

          With his usual flair, Hancock designed and had made uniforms and purchased all the weapons and equipment for the entire unit. They drilled regularly on the green and Hancock began to think of himself as a military commander. Unfortunately, his unit was really more honor guard than combat unit.

          When the Second Continental Congress started discussions about selecting a commander in chief for the Continental Army, Hancock was certain that he would be chosen. When John Adams rose and began speaking about who he felt was the most capable man for the position, Hancock was all smiles probably thinking that his fellow representative from Massachusetts was talking about him. When Adams motioned that George Washington be appointed, Hancock’s countenance was seen to fall. After Samuel Adams quickly seconded the motion (probably just to bust chops) Hancock was devastated.

          So you see, your assertion that unqualified men can get themselves a command in some fashion is absolutely true. Fortunately, America has always managed to have effective military leaders. Men appointed as colonels such as Shelby, Sevier, Campbell, Cleveland, Marion, Lacy, et al were all effective militia leaders where Hancock certainly would not have been. In fact, a case could be made that were it not for them, the Revolution would have been lost in 1781. And in fairness to Hancock, he did command an artillery unit as a captain towards the end of the war if I remember correctly.

          Who makes the decision? The men in the unit do. They choose to willingly follow. It’s not a damn bit different than it was in the 1700’s.

          By what authority? Well, lessee, we spent a lot of time putting together an SOP. It’s the better part of 100 pages. It was published and sent out to the various units across the state for approval. There was some haggling to be sure, but everybody is using it as the guide now. In that SOP the requirements for Rifleman tabs are defined. Individuals have to complete those requirements in the presence of an oathed member who signs off. When a troop’s ticket is complete we hold a little ceremony to present the tab.

      • I know of several modern militia units that elect their Commanders. That approach makes a lot of sense – especially if common sense remains in play among the members of the team, and it doesn’t become a mere popularity contest.

        Max answered the tab question for the Civilians – meet a standard (Rifleman or Vanguard), earn a tab. Makes sense to me. 😉

        • The problem with election of officers will show itself to be the same as it was in the time of the Revolutionary War; which is why the colonial authorities started commissioning officers and having them ‘enlist’ volunteers. Elected officers back then didn’t like to give orders the men didn’t like, and the men wouldn’t obey the officers if the orders were too harsh or took them away from home. A good source for information on this is a book called, “Red Dawn at Lexington” by Louis Birnbaum. The volunteer companies with appointed/promoted officers, chartered by colonial governments (Committees of Safety, etc) did much better on the field. I suspect the same will occur in our future if ‘the day’ ever occurs.

          • And Committees of Safety are being set-up all over this country, right now. 😉 It is a progression.

          • outlawpatriot

            Well, you’re right to a point Tom. Gotta keep in mind that there were three military entities on both sides during the Revolution. The Continental Army, State Militias (Provincial Militias for the Brits) and the “unorganized” Whig and Tory militias.

            The Whig and Tory militias were usually frowned upon by their respective sides. These guys were mostly frontiersmen and Indian fighters and not very well disciplined. They didn’t do well fighting in 18th century style and had no training and did not possess bayonets, the prime weapon of the time. They didn’t like walking. They preferred to travel by horseback and fight “Indian style”. Many were fiercely loyal to their leaders, elected or appointed. More often than not, they broke and ran when integrated in the static formations and faced with bayonet charges. Hence their bad rep so often recorded in history.

            But that view is beginning to change. Those “unorganized” guys, some with their elected leaders are now being viewed as probably more important to the patriot victory than first thought. While not all that effective in the north, their contribution in the south was nothing short of epic. Starting with Huck’s Defeat, unorganized militia began giving headaches and confounding British leaders, Cornwallis in particular. At King’s Mountain, the entire patriot force was composed of unorganized militias and handily defeated Provincial and Tory forces led by the only British soldier, Patrick Ferguson. This battle was arguably the turning point in our battle for independence.

            A few months later, Daniel Morgan employed unorganized militia units at Cowpens and they performed brilliantly. Probably because Morgan understood their nature and only expected them to do what they were able. This battle resulted in the destruction of Cornwallis’ cavalry and light infantry. Morgan advised Greene to use the same tactics at Guilford Courthouse and while a technically a patriot defeat the British victory was pyrrhic and they were essentially beat.

            Moral of the story. History initially recorded the derisions of the regular army concerning the performance and contribution of the militia. That’s changing. It beginning to look like if it hadn’t been for all those individual militias, the Revolution would never have been won.

  13. Well… hey! When we get gunships, will I be able to play too?

    Huh? Huh?

    My nut is bigger than yourrr nut, my nut is bigger than yourrrsss… erp… erp… erp…

  14. You can tell the bad guys from the good guys because the bad guys are the ones shooting at you.

  15. DWEEZIL THE WEASEL

    I definitely see the need some people have to organize a group to defend their A/O during whatever festivities. Keep in mind you must start out small, build trust with one another and thoroughly examine the history of all who wish to be a part of your group. I do not have to remind anyone here of the “militias” who were infiltrated and compromised by snitches, U/C Feds, and others with hidden agendas. Be warned.