The Current Militia Movement, Ver. 2.0


Bill Roberts sends; I have already invited him to send on his own schedule anything that he wishes re the items listed in his final graf:

“…I’d really like to move on in the future to a discussion of operational considerations for both insurgency and counter insurgency. Might be somewhat enlightening. Considering I wrote the first complete draft of the COIN manual for the Infantry School at Ft. Benning back in 1994, I know a little bit about it. Maybe we could discuss unit organization, the necessity and benefits tactically and operationally of subordination to legitimate authority, IPB, RACO, logistics or something else entirely…”

That offer extends equally to any member of any militia organization or any other citizen defense advocate. The email address here is

The Current Militia Movement, Ver. 2.0
Bill Roberts

Okay. After the last go round I can see that there are a few points I should have addressed in more detail and a couple of observations that I will address. Let me state at the beginning that the biggest issues I see with the so-called militias are the lack of standardized organization and leadership. In the following writings I will address how these problems were addressed and codified in the early days of our nation.

First. I meant all that stuff about let us all try to have a rational discussion. If the best you can come up with is name calling or threats, or if you see any need for either, I suggest you are wasting your valuable breath. To those of you who followed that brief guidance, in most cases if it was required, I responded. For the ones who started out with the personal attacks, I stopped reading as soon as I realized we could not be civil. Now on to the first of a few observations I want to explore. I am not asking you to agree with anything I have to say. I am simply asking that you check your unbridled frustration and hostility at the door. You can’t possibly think that anyone is going to pay any attention to your ranting and raving except maybe somebody of like attitude. This is not the way of engendering cooperation and change. Please take note that I do not intend my tone to be condescending in general. I will actually let you know when I intend to be such. That said, let us move on.

One comment that I addressed and will mention here again, is that the reason I used the references that I did is because they are historically based on law, not someone’s opinion. Regardless of who’s opinion it maybe, the words of the Constitution of the United States and the various Acts and Codes that have become law trump opinion.

I believe a slightly expanded historic time line may help with the understanding of the points I am trying to make about militias.

The etymology of the word militia is from the Latin miles and –itia. The first meaning soldier and the second suffix referring to the state (governmental entity.) Together they essentially mean military service. Earliest written reference to the militia seems to be in the mid to late 16th century. So we see in the earliest known references the militia was the body of soldiers that composed the military structure. Now on to some more history in the United States.

The First Continental Congress was convened September 5, 1774. Only Georgia was absent. Their business was to address the Coercive Acts (aka the Intolerable Acts by the colonialists.) They were dealing with the Crown’s punishment of Boston for the Tea Party. They petitioned King George III for relief and called for a Second Continental Congress to convene if their petition was unsuccessful. The petition granted no relief.

In April 1775 fighting broke out in Boston between the British units and local militia members loyal to the patriot movement. Notice I said loyal to the patriot movement because there were militias on the Tory side as well, especially in the southern colonies. This date is considered to be the beginning of the Revolutionary war that continued until 1783.

0n May 10, 1775 the Second Continental Congress convened with representatives of all 12 colonies previously in attendance at the First Continental Congress. Three days later the representatives from Georgia arrived. They became the de facto government of what would become the United States though with no legal basis to govern. The delegates urged each colony to form militias and to train. On June 12, 1775 the Continental Navy was established, on June 14, 1775 they created the Continental Army out of the militias surrounding Boston and appointed George Washington as commander. On November 10, 1775 the Continental Marines were established.

It wasn’t until July 4, 1776 that the Declaration of Independence was signed and about the same time the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Unity were drafted but not ratified by all colonies until February 2, 1781. Here is a link to a transcript of the articles for those of you who may be unfamiliar with the document that is considered by most as the “First U.S. Constitution.” I find it interesting that this congress preapproved Canada for admission to the Union. Now that would make for an interesting alternate time line in someone’s Sci-Fi book or movie.

For many reasons, not the least of which was the lack of enforcement powers and money, the Articles of Confederation were a failure. Based upon this, a Constitutional Convention was held beginning in May of 1787. On 17 September 1787 the Constitution was signed. Less than a year later, by 21 June 1798, eleven states had ratified the new Constitution and it became law. North Carolina and Rhode Island ratified it by May 1790.

Now to speak briefly of the Militia Acts. In 1792 two separate acts were passed that are together referred to as the Militia Acts of 1792. The first gave the President the power to unilaterally (without congressional approval) call up the state militias for service in defense of the nation. The second, signed into law six days later on 8 may 1792, provided for the standardized organization of all state militias and effectively conscripted every “free, able-bodied white male citizen” between the ages of 18 and 45 into a local militia company. The Militia Act of 1795 was subsequently passed to keep the authority of the President to call up the militias in force. The Militia Act of 1862 was passed to allow the President to call militias for “Federal (Union)” service against the Confederacy. It also provided that “persons of African descent” could serve in the militias. It was superseded by the Militia Act of 1903 which established the United States National Guard as the Organized Militia in this nation.

Now you can see some of the changes from the First Continental Congress to today. This should give you a better idea of where some of my facts originated. It also demonstrates that the U.S. National Guard has everything to do with the militia as defined and codified by law.

History lesson over. Now to address some other issues from the last go round. And then move on.

I am not “one of them.” I am not trying to drive a wedge between anyone and any group. Many of the “militias” do that all by themselves and don’t need my help. The more “militias” demonstrate their anger and rage on the internet, the more they demonstrate their contempt for the government and the more they photograph themselves running around in camouflage carrying “assault rifles,” the worse it will become between them and the “average” citizen. By the way, I put those terms in quotes because I believe they are misnomers and used incorrectly in most discussions. I will say it again and again, organize your communities, your neighborhood, whatever. Stay off the radar. Look for conservative political leaders.

You may feel free to call yourself anything you want. Trust me on this one, many organizations from the NSA down to the Southern Poverty Law Center, know who comprises the “militias.” If you want to be a “militia”, so be it. Don’t let the mere fact that the meaning of that term was defined by actual etymology and in this country by law and you don’t fit that meaning as set forth dissuade you. You may feel free to fall back on the dictionary definition I provided in my last writing. The first three conform to the Constitution, the Militia Act and U.S. Code. I bring your attention to the fourth and fifth examples provided as that is where a good number of you seem to be. Emphasis added.

[mi-lishuh] noun

1. a body of citizens enrolled for military service, and called out periodically for drill but serving full time only in emergencies.

2. a body of citizen soldiers as distinguished from professional soldiers.

3. all able-bodied males considered by law eligible for military service.

4. a body of citizens organized in a paramilitary group and typically regarding themselves as defenders of individual rights against the PRESUMED interference of the federal government.

5. a military force that engages in rebel or terrorist activities, typically in opposition to a regular army.

Also, please don’t let a little thing like the rule of law be an issue. Each of us has free will. That is the way God made us. So if you want to ignore laws and/or break laws, have at it. I for one used to have a terrible time with speed limits. Never as high as what I wanted. Actually lost my license as a teenager just before I enlisted. Anyway we have a term for people who break the law, we call them criminals. I saw a lot of them during my time on the bench. All ages, races, and creeds and they all had an excuse. Yes, I know, this last paragraph has been condescending. Get over it. Couldn’t help myself.

For those who informed me of the way the SHTF scenario would happen, let me just say: Maybe. See I believe the SHTF scenario will begin when the government gets tired of the disorganized “militias” and begins to consider them a threat. When I say them I mean the collective them as in “militias” that are not. That hasn’t happened. When it does, and I doubt the government and military will collapse prior to that event, then the ubiquitous “THEY” are going to come for “THEM.” And unlike Ruby Ridge and Waco, where there was this long standoff and negotiation before the government started murdering folks, they will probably deem the disorganized militias as domestic terrorists and use deadly force first.

This also negates the idea that these “militias” will be facing a beleaguered military force. That would be nice as they would at least have a chance. Well, maybe. Consider however, the hostilities of the 1860s here in the United States. Yeah, I know, the Confederacy had incredible victories, they were great. I get it. They lost. One of the reasons was lack of materiel. A war of attrition. Can’t fight much without bullets and other resources. And for the record, there were families divided on that one. Brothers killing brothers. Do you think the average Infantry soldier will not engage people bearing arms that have been declare terrorists?

Going back further to the Revolutionary War, I keep hearing about how great the militias were. Not saying they didn’t fight hard, just saying they weren’t the lynch pin to victory. There are a few commonly agreed upon reasons why the British lost.

First, Howe was unable to capture Washington at New York and as a result Washington went on to keep his army together and eventually defeat the British but it wasn’t all him. By the way, the British kicked the militia as well as the Continental Army in the rear at New York.

Another reason was thanks to Parliament itself. It was divided on the colonial issue and support for the war was tenuous. The British economy was in trouble and the war was a huge drain. Good place to note that the majority of British citizens and MOP were in favor of giving the colonialists equal rights.

Then we had the Franco-American alliance. When the French joined in, suddenly other British colonies were at risk. Had the British on multiple fronts so to speak.

In the southern colonies the British overestimated the Loyalist. They had planned on recruiting Loyalist armies in the south and it just didn’t happen.

And the last one, of many, that I will mention, though maybe the most critical, was the lack of ability for the British to resupply itself in a timely matter. Happened to the British during the Revolutionary War just as it happened to the Confederacy during the Unpleasantness and has happened in countless other examples around the world and throughout history. Resupply matters. As a rhetorical question, how much do you have on hand in say classes I through IX? How long can you sustain yourself without more resources? Do these groups think they will simply take what they need from the locals? I, for one, do not care who they are, who they claim to be, what agency or organization they are with, if they wear a badge or not, if I think they are a threat to me or my family or intend to take what is mine by the virtue of my labor, they are in for one great big FXXXKING surprise. To paraphrase some Hollywood movie: “You may get me in a bum’s rush but I am going to take some of you with me.” I am pretty much a “Don’t Tread on Me” type. Anyone who starts commandeering supplies from the populace will only hasten their own defeat.

Why do I keep harping all over the place about history and fact? Partly because of the old adage: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” George Santayana, 1863 – 1952. Partly because learning and understanding the past leads to fresh solutions to the problems of today.

Another good one that I kept getting hit with surrounds “The Oath.” For those of you who may not know what oath we are talking about I provide it here for you. As an enlisted soldier I took the first one, as an officer the second.

I, (state your full name) do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

I, (state your full name) having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indi­cated above in the grade of (fill in the blank) do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obli­gation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.”

Some differences between the two. Interestingly, as with the Second Amendment to the U. S. Constitution, and other documents, people want to pick what they choose to believe it says. Before those flood gates open, I firmly believe that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right.

In the case of the first oath the usual choice is the part about I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.. That last part, I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God, seems to be a hindrance to their point of view. Just screws up their whole “militia” argument that they are really defending this great nation. All the parts of the oath weigh equally in my opinion but of course some may disagree.

In the second oath the part about obeying the orders of the President of the United States and those appointed over me is not required as officers have only the chain of command to follow. Enlisted soldiers are also subject to orders from other enlisted soldiers of higher rank. The only difference here is the difference between a lawful order and a direct order but that is outside the requirements of this discussion.

I took my oaths very seriously, though as an officer, on a few occasions, I said “NO! Don’t like it? Relieve me.” But that is another story to be had with friends over beer. Maybe one day. By the way, the POTUS has a different oath. That oath of office states:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.

That “to the best of my ability” has always bothered me but that is the way it is. I guess some are more able than others.

There were many more diatribes but as I said, many got tuned out after a few words or a line or two. In fact, someone queried why I didn’t answer all the great, insightful questions that were posed. I told him to give me a list and I’d look into it but it might just be that our definitions of “great, insightful questions” differ. Also, I firmly understand that it matters not what I say, many of you will never change your mind or even consider my points regardless of how they are presented.

Now to the real issue at hand. Should communities have some sort of armed organization to deal with situations that the current system cannot. My personal answer is yes. There are many potential events that might require an armed response. As an example: several years ago we had tornados that devastated some of the local communities. In my own area we were fortunate, only four homes destroyed and three dead. The problem was that the American Red Cross and FEMA were not even looking at us. The county sheriff came out and called for removal of the bodies after the little investigation and that was it. As a community we pulled together, found lodging for the two survivors, and started the task of cleaning up the mess. For some reason people from outside our community thought that it was okay to come in the dead of night and collect up what they wanted. Fortunately we were prepared with armed citizens on the properties and there was no looting. This is but one example in many I can think of.

It is not that I advise you not to organize and arm, quite the contrary. Just don’t flaunt and flash it all over the internet and announce you are a “militia” intent on saving your community from the government. That one you will lose. Come up with a more innocuous name for your organization. Maybe West End Community Observation Group or something that doesn’t draw immediate attention.

I will grant you all that this nation is wrought with problems from rampant welfare to special rights for every miniscule minority. I do not agree with the current foreign policy especially as it regards the various muslim nations. I have spent time with muslims and my answer to dealing with them is not in the least PC. As a point of departure, I have read the Koran in a 1930’s translation. To say it was enlightening is an understatement. I also suggest you read the Hadith. Another nail in the coffin of muslim irrationality. Anyone who claims islam is a religion of peace is either lying or just not informed. In all this please don’t forget the Bible. God’s word brings strength. If you haven’t read it, and I mean cover to cover, get started. I don’t disagree that the issues of taxation, uncontrolled alien intrusion from many countries and top of the list, Barack Hussein Obama and the executive order, have me more than a little pissed off. I am simply not ready to throw in the towel and quit trying to change things through peaceful methods.

Even the colonialists petitioned King George III in writing for relief. Have any of you? That’s right, I forgot, no national organization.

I guess until/if I am invited to submit something else this ends the lesson. I’d really like to move on in the future to a discussion of operational considerations for both insurgency and counter insurgency. Might be somewhat enlightening. Considering I wrote the first complete draft of the COIN manual for the Infantry School at Ft. Benning back in 1994, I know a little bit about it. Maybe we could discuss unit organization, the necessity and benefits tactically and operationally of subordination to legitimate authority, IPB, RACO, logistics or something else entirely. Anything but the illegitimacy of the “militia” movement as it is currently structured.

Until then be safe.


William David “Bill” Roberts II

180 responses to “The Current Militia Movement, Ver. 2.0

  1. outlawpatriot

    No, thanks. I’ll pass. Not interested in a thing this guy has to say.

    Even if he has it right concerning the Articles of Confederation. 🙂

    • Exactly. He’s already made himself perfectly clear, what he thinks of anyone who doesn’t kiss .gov boots.

    • SFC Steven M Barry USA RET

      Of course you’re not interested. Roberts is grounded in reality as opposed to floating around in glittery militia fairy dust.


      • Jimmy the Saint

        Not every example bears Roberts out, however.

        During “The Troubles” in Northern Ireland, Republicans were far more effective at killing government forces (Army and RUC, primarily) than the government forces were at killing them, for example.

        • SFC Barry is a plant, ignore him, and make him irellevant, he is a pysops plant, no free man, especially military, advocates the clown tyranny he proposes! Yes, the military requires structure, to accomplish mission objectives, and is even authoritarian from top down to ensure objectives are accomplished, but that is the military and not civilian. He’s looking to disrupt communications here between true patriots. And fuck you Barry if you challenge my patriotism, I’ve been blown up for my country, and most importantly have its best interest at heart. Real men and warriors advocate for their way of life, and keep fighting for it. You have done the opposite, and warriors of the past, would be ashamed of you.

          • Funny you say that Jarhead.
            The last time these two fellows came at us, it sure looked suspicious, something just wasn’t adding up. Almost like they where tag teaming everyone, looking for reactions.
            Two genuine guys, their political acumen notwithstanding, would have gone out of their way to accommodate who they viewed as less than schooled in the art of insurgency and all its complicated social and political dynamics.
            These two, along with a couple of other commenters, sure looked like they where baiting the commentary.

            Aside from their notable lack of humility in these serious matters, their approach sure smells fishy. Almost like they are trolling for something.

            • Let’s be clear, folks: These gentlemen are here because of invitations from me.

              Those invitations were extended because of their experience in UW.

              Many, many people do not yet grasp the magnitude of the tasks involved in bringing Rightful Liberty to North America.

              Most terribly, the majority of the humans in North America don’t even want Rightful Liberty.

              Therefore, in my judgment in running this place, qualified bearers of bad news are always welcome to point out flaws in patriot thinking at the tactical, operational, strategic, and grand strategic levels.

              Remember always Admiral Stockdale’s advice:

              “You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end – which you can never afford to lose – with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”

              • CA, I’ve known of Barry since the mid-90’s. Subscribed to “The Resister” the day I read about it in SoF magazine and still have every copy. “The Resister” was deep stuff (I tho’t).
                That being said, I look(ed?) to the guys like Barry and Roberts to say something along the lines of –
                ‘Let me help. You need this type of equipment. You need this much ammo. You need to be able to do ‘x’ physically. Etc, etc.
                Get there. Be that person and when the time comes, I’ll come and finish up a few things you lack and we’ll light the candle.’
                Instead we get trashed, talked down to and berated.
                Not sure I want to be led by these guys. Even more so in light of Barry’s ‘Let’s all be subjects of the king and the Catholics.’

                • SameNoKami,

                  “Instead we get trashed, talked down to and berated.”

                  That’s the same observation I’ve made from their remarks. Especially the guy Barry….who cannot let go of the past even though he’s been on the freakin’ retirement rolls of USA for nearly two decades.

                  “SFC”….that makes me want to upchuck. I am not impressed.

              • Eminently sensible, and the role of many SF guys in this War–BOTH philosophically and tactically–can’t be overstated IMO. They ain’t called “special” for nuthin’.

                OTOH I’m confident that K will verify that for quite some time, I informed him that IMO, “Pragmatism is your biggest enemy, by far.” He too sought to “get done” some various things and now he’s in a pickle. I bring it up because the ONLY resolution–not merely for him, but for all of us in the spot we’re in–is absolute clear-cut principles with absolutely NO COMPROMISE. Just like G said—“There is no middle ground.”

              • It is your blog C.A.
                It is a personal responsibility on my part to recognize that, and act accordingly out of respect for your incredible efforts and concern.
                If my comments have insulted you, I am ashamed and have no right to impose on you like that. Unintentionally even, is no excuse.
                My most sincere and humble apologies.

                Having said that, in defense of my honor, I see these guys are calling me out as a concerned American. I wish to heaven there where a thousand militia company’s out there organized by our military fellow Americans. It would be an unassailable form of redress and recourse, and those running things would assuredly be suitably chastised and behave according to the rule of law and principles there of because of it.
                Yet, their intent notwithstanding, the message I am getting from Mr. Roberts is basically do what we say or you are going to die.
                That is a serious call out.
                You don’t get to say that to me and then chicken out in being accountable for those kind of words by hiding behind a claim you wrote the book on it.
                I don’t care what anybody says.

                Roberts and Barry started this. They opened this can of worms.
                I believe I have a responsibility, a duty if you will, to call them out also, if for no other reason than to require substantive back up for what they are calling me out on, with reason and proof of their thinking beyond standard military doctrine or history which was written by the victors which is suspect in many ways. If for no other reason, I’m to blindly put my life and liberty on the line for two guys who say they wrote the book on what they are selling?
                In that light, my responsibility to my liberty, and my country, is included the act of trust but verify.
                This whole militia thing is predicated on trust verified if it is to work in the manner they are hawking here.
                If I’m to become a militia man, it isn’t like being a government issue military solder where you are property of uncle Sam and it is his way or the highway mentality.
                We are civilians. A cantankerous independent rebellious argumentative type of American. If they can’t stand the pushback, maybe they should revise their understanding of a civilian militia and its dynamics.
                And quite frankly C.A., in my personal opinion, for what that is worth, I’m not buying into what Mr. Roberts and Barry are selling because it seems to me, for whatever reason, they see that quality in me at least, as a defect. When in fact, that defect of independence and rebellious nature, is my greatest quality. There is something of indomitable will and unconquerable spirit in it which is a profound component in the equation of fighting for freedom and liberty.
                Nothing these two fellows, or anybody on God’s green Earth will change that in me.
                My call out is I believe Mr. Roberts and Mr. Barry are ignoring this. That is wrong. It is very very important to me it is part of the equation C.A.
                And if they want to earn my respect, this must be addressed fully and without reservation, in the open, with all due respect in return for their qualities as US military men and what they have to offer.
                It must be a two way street.
                Nothing less is acceptable.

                Former military men out there who I have direct experience knowing, Max Velocity and John Mosby, they have a deep residing respect for the will and tenacity, the virtue of civilians who wish to learn the ways of the military arts.
                These two men have a quiet humility which lends a certain credence and caveat to their bonifieds which I found beyond reproach. If anything, this quality and virtue in these men was the greatest thing they taught me.

                We are in this mess, because too many blindly follow those who are running things, because we have not been vigilant as civillians and called to task those who presume to rule us.
                Am I sensitive to that?
                You bet your arse I am.
                It is why I am here.
                On that score, Some things don’t add up here with Mr. Roberts and Barry.
                And they are not being accountable for it. They make a pattern out of it.
                Which puts their veracity in doubt in my book.
                May I be proved wrong.

                • You have not insulted me. I hope I have not done the same.

                  My point was that the two gentlemen are here as invited guests.

                  I would ask that all treat them as such.

                  By that, I mean focus on their ideas, with much less attention to their motives. They were invited here because I have faith that their intent is constructive, even if some preconceptions get gored.

                  Both men are retired and are sharing their time with us gratis. They can and probably should tell us all to stick it up our collective blowholes.

                  Focus on the ideas. The 556 comment re the pesticide jockey seems apt.

                  • Not even close C.A.
                    This is great stuff here on your blog, I respect you, it is always something really cool going on, the cast of all us characters makes it fun, I learn something every minute, it can get sporty, it can get offensive, or rip snorting hilarious, but I never could be insulted by you, I’m a guest here before anything.

                    I read 566’s comment when he posted it and agree he is correct, but agree to disagree with him in an important aspect.
                    I understand what these guys are bringing to the table, the tactics, the reasoning, the evolution in the .mill of how their favored strategy has evolved. And I can see why they are proponents of it. There is much merit in it.
                    Having said that, I think a lot has changed very rapidly, and not only those guys, all of us are behind the curve so to speak.
                    Things are evolving, or devolving, so quickly all the old, or generally accepted models and norms are becoming obsolete.
                    These old models they base their recommendations on are beginning to look, well, old, outdated. It is very difficult to define this.
                    My contention here is not with their strategy and tactics, it is an absence of the human equation in their largess and generosity of offering their expertise, pertinent to today right now.
                    Personally, I see this as entirely a different critter than all previous aspects of culture of conflict in American history, in every respect.
                    And…a crucial ingredient which can not be ignored even the tiniest bit, because it is this crucial component of culture which is going to make or break the success or failure of what these guys advocate in redress by arms and violence.
                    The flaw for me, as I see it, and there is no diplomatic way to say this, they are operational in a vacuum.
                    And I can say this with justification, because we as civilians have something to add, and it is absolutely essential to the equation of armed revolution, our warts and deficiencies, our faults and idiosyncracies included.

                    We Are The Equation.

                    Think of it this way C.A., we right now, are the product of over 200 years of social engineering. Engineered to be basically slaves to an administrative tyranny ruled by a collection of greedy bankers who have employed every trick in the book to raise us as cash cows they can milk with impunity.
                    Sure, plenty of us slaves will always be slaves. No help for it. That is a product and consequence of that social engineering, intentional.
                    But, you can’t mess with such a body of human beings as we are, and not have unintended consequences in as a result. That is an uncontrollable feature of social engineering. Just as you create a slave class, you create some not slaves. And like the slaves, they too evolve as time passes. Some become more enslaved, and some become less enslaved. It is those less enslaved where we get outliers in the equation of liberty verses tyranny, fighting tyranny and submitting to tyranny.
                    You end up with all sorts of extremes. Things begin to mutate in this social engineering. The mutations begin to effect the equation. It begins to get away from the social engineers, and one day they loose total control of the process.

                    Lot has happened since the last revolution. Much forgotten, many unknowns, the “social contract” has dramatically altered.
                    Ideas, perceptions, mores, techniques, technology, culture and population are nothing like they where over two centuries ago.

                    And that particularly applies to liberty and Freemen whole cherish liberty.

                    And this next thing I have to say, it is entirely my own perception, I own it, and for good or bad, I take responsibility for it, and for saying it, good intentions they may be, but Mr. Roberts and Mr. Barry they are dinosaurs.
                    I’m telling everyone here, whats going down, is a critter like nothing else, there is no reference in the past which is a viable model, and not me, or you, or Roberts and Barry, have it straight, we are all wrong.

                    The only way to extradite our arses from this is by returning to and preparing by, the most basic premises. Nothing fancy, no complicated things like special forces doctrine, militias, or private armies, or underground insurgencies, or guerrilla movements.
                    What is going to work is, let it burn, let it all come crumbling down, and in the anarchy, trial by fire, going back to the most basic forms of combat and culture, and build up from there.
                    We keep making the same mistakes over and over. Repeating ourselves over and over, and we end up with the same results each time.

                    But here’s the thing in all this, I believe the confluence of events, the structure of society, the character of our culture, the timing of it all is perfect. We are at a juncture where it is the best thing which could happen in the longer run where it has to all come crashing down and start anew. Out of that turmoil is where things the best of what we are, because of our past and founding, because of the social engineering, we come out winners.

                    I think this is what will happen. Where it is heading.
                    I can sense it in people, in most of you all here.
                    Its like so many of us know something, but can’t quite put a finger on its exact nature.
                    A yearning for something. A desire. For something other than all this going down. It is manifold. It crosses the width of our country. Its so hard to define it, but it is real.

                    • While you are correct that what we are seeing is different and new (I posted that sentiment) we would be wise to start with what is known as current 4GW and work up, rather than work from scratch.

                      The reasons for no clear victory in recent 4GW conflicts has much less to do with skill and more to do with political will.

                      We need to work TOGETHER to figure out what we do rather than attacking each person willing to put their knowledge base out here for us to ask questions about and learn.

                      LEARN ( LEss Asshole Remarks Needed) LOL

              • outlawpatriot

                You invited the wrong guys my friend. They ain’t right. You should separate yourself from them.

                  • OP is one of the right guys.

                  • OP IS one of the right guys.

                  • outlawpatriot

                    I believe if the time should come, I can bring the right guys. However, I will not under any circumstances bring them into a perimeter where Bugs Barry and Bobbin’ Billy reside. Likewise, they would never be permitted in our perimeter and if in our AO we would endeavor to run them off.

                    Listen, Peter, I know what you’re tryin’ to do. And I commend you for it. Further, don’t stop what you’re doin’.

                    But separate yourself from this Looney Tunes gang. Like Obama, they’re tellin’ ya exactly what they think and like the goat humper culture it ain’t compatible.

                    We don’t need them.

                    • “Keep it sane. Keep it local. Keep it disciplined. Keep it military.”

                      I would think you are in agreement with each piece and the whole.

                      I appreciate what you are doing with your people as well.

                      Would you mind writing a piece saying (obviously within the various SECs) how you take a new member from entry to “good to go”?

                      Other would be helped by same.

                • “You should separate yourself from them.”

                  You pick his socks too?

                  • Nor his nose nor arse… just legitimate criticism , as invited by Hizzoner, Hisownself.

                    Buzz off with yer petulant personal animosity, not to mention condescending superiority.

      • No Sgt Barry, you don’t get it.
        You have the statist .mil slave mentality so ingrained in your brain, a nation of Freemen could win against the sonofabitches running things without friring a shot and you would still be saying we ain’t worth a bucket of warm spot because we didn’t bow down on a knee and kiss your ring of military superiority.
        Don’t you get it dude?
        You are a tool of the PTB.
        You been played for a fool.
        You are cannon fodder of tyranny.
        Your a proxy for greed and power.
        You ain’t any different than the rest of us.
        Slaves to the state.
        We all been conned when they signed that foul piece of animal hide in 1778.
        What your missing is the dynamic shaping up.
        You call it fairy dust, because it threatens the thinking you cling to.
        What it is is a completely unique insurgency unlike what you been indoctrinated to, and your ideas about militias are dependent upon.
        Call it what you will, look down your nose at truly free men who refuse to comply any longer, use insults to mask the fear you have of true liberty.

        But it is liberty, it can’t be denied, because liberty is insurgent, it is insurgency by its very nature.

        And if you are to model your concepts of resistance, adapt your institutional tactics and strategy to that truth of liberty as insurgency, you would have people beating down your door for your help.
        This insurgency of liberty is open source.
        Your ways are closed source.
        Profound differences here between the two.

        Until you grasp this, your not going to have any legitimacy in these matters but with people who are ignorant of or ignore these truths. And those are the people you don’t want to organize militias if you want to win.

        This isn’t a repeat of history pal.
        The old stuff isn’t going to cut the mustard.
        This is about existentialism.
        What’s coming down the pike is a war of extermination.
        Because those who have created the tyranny breathing down our necks aim to exterminate every shred of freedom and every idea of liberty from God’s green Earth.
        Your concepts of militias and how they work and your premise for their organization based on past history are not viable in the face of what is going on in the present.
        It is a fatal flaw in your doctrine.

      • ROTFLMAO

      • outlawpatriot

        Pound salt, Sarge. 🙂

  2. So Capt. Parker wasn’t in the MIlitia

  3. I’d be interested in hearing/reading Bill’s ideas. Timely, and overdue.

  4. So do we burn our guns and ammo, melt/weld them into “Don’t Screw w/the Gov’t” sculpture or sell them to ignorant survivalist/militia types and donate the money to the SPLC ?
    Since everyone not in the group is wrong, am I allowed to at least keep a shotgun for the hunting purposes in the 2nd amendment ?

  5. Let the comment orgy begin, although it appears that I’m already late to put out that invite. So … when it is over, I , like our host here, am looking forward to further posts from the author. Something must be wrong with me, I’m just not hardly angry enough after reading an attempted rudder correction.

    • outlawpatriot

      Rudder correction?

      The guy is a condescending prick. One of “those” officers.

      No, we can do without him.

      • Alan,

        “One of “those” officers.”

        I don’t know about “those” officers but, I’ve had little use for ANY commissioned officers.

        • outlawpatriot

          I had the pleasure of knowing many fine officers during my eight years of active duty. I also had the displeasure of knowing officers like the filth represented here now.

    • Likewise.

  6. Pingback: A Professional Perspective: The Current Militia Movement, Ver. 2.0 | Mason Dixon Tactical

  7. I agree with a lot of that but since we are moving forward with this conversation my real interest is in having been deployed to both iraq and the hurricane Katrina mess (national guard) what are some practical TTPs and organizations for people in a non permissive environment? Survivability and not getting put in a cage for the rest of your life for protecting your family is the big one.

  8. It seems you lean a little to the left Bill. Our govt ignores the Constitution and the rule of law and now we have 3 branches of govt making law. Did not hear you call them criminals once. I will say from the many military people I encounter you are wrong about them. Many, if not most, will stand with the American people and their country. We don’t wish to change our govt, just change out the traitors and corrupt politicians in this one. And yes we know they will come for us in the dark of night and we know they will try to murder the men, women and children along with the dog. To that we can only say “MOLON LABE”. The memories from Ruby Ridge and Waco are still there. The fact that the core majority of our raggedy little patriot groups are hard core combat vets shouldn’t worry anyone. Another really big thing Bill is this is our home, Old Glory is our flag and America belongs to us. No pos is taking this country from us, no one. Our families must live free and be able to choose what they believe in. We are being robbed of our liberty, our country and told to change our religion. They know we won’t do that. And you know what Bill, I believe with a little divine guidance we can get er done. God Bless America and her Patriots

    • I truly believe the best asset we patriots have in our favor is that controlling us is akin to herding cats, there is no head to cut off, and when things hit critical mass there will be spontaneous eruption throughout the land, somewhat ala John Ross’ Unintended Consequences. If not, we’re fooked.

  9. Lots of arm-waving here. I just can’t quite get up the interest to actually read the thing. Maybe the gratuitous sneers put me off.

  10. The only point I can take away from these types of posts is that The State is “legitimate” and therefore “right” and anything to the contrary is toast.

    So why bother with tepid “unit organization, the necessity and benefits tactically and operationally of subordination to legitimate authority, IPB, RACO, logistics or something else entirely…” ???

    Especially “subordination to legitimate authority.” Mr Roberts (heh!) makes it abundantly clear wherein said authority lies, and it isn’t with us. Moreover, he says, that when IT decides to do so, it’ll mop the landscape with our guts. I never thought I would read, here on WRSA, a serious reference to “legitimate authority.”

    Whatever happened to recognizing the complete loss of any semblance of legitimacy by a criminal enterprise that bears no allegiance to any Oath, Constitution, Rule of Law, national identity, borders, simple decency… (well, you all know the rest)?

    We are absolved, and on our own account, we will either defend ourselves and win or lose honoring ourselves and our beliefs and values, or we will not. But I do not trust any source, no matter how qualified, who begins his every “outreach” with a schoolmaster’s scolding of ignorant boys according to standards and procedures that are no longer valid.

    We. Are. Absolved.

    • It’s kind of telling 0-6, how all that has worked out for them.
      Mr. Roberts and Mr. Barry wouldn’t be saying the things they are if they recognized, to quote what you said so well:
      “… the complete loss of any semblance of legitimacy by a criminal enterprise that bears no allegiance to any Oath, Constitution, Rule of Law, national identity, borders, simple decency…”

      I think when you are so indoctrinated by the state and centralized power and control over every facet of your life, it is difficult to see alternatives to your ideology. That there are viable alternatives which exist.

    • “I never thought I would read, here on WRSA, a serious reference to ‘legitimate authority.'”

      It may surprise you that this anarchist believes there is such a thing as “legitimate authority.” However, it is not bestowed by laws, constitutions, voting or any other legalistic artifice, nor is it maintained by coercion. It is earned by deeds, and maintained by reputation and consent.

      • Cassandra (of Troy)


        Agree. Legitimate authority is like virginity & liberty, easily let go & practically impossible to regain once it’s gone despite how much one wants it back &/or claims to still have it.

        • No, that’s wrong; unusual for you. Too much overthinking going on. It’s as ikdr said, only even simpler. Both legitimacy and authority arise ONLY through consent.

          It’s not so easy to see about legitimacy, but it’s true nonetheless. It’s akin to the fact that there’s no such thing as an unchosen obligation. No person on Earth has an obligation that he himself doesn’t choose as such. That’s why nobody can give even a single counter-example for themselves; they can only squawk about the obligations that others supposedly have. None of that changes the fact of the matter, and so it is with legitimacy. There is not a single action that is either legitimate or illegitimate but for the judgement of some person. That’s why here too, not a single counterexample can be provided.

          The necessity of consent with regard to authority is much easier to grok. Power doesn’t become authority without the consent of the one upon whom the authority is claimed. Otherwise it’s just plain power, duh.

  11. Whatever
    blah blah blah
    Personally i favor the pashtun/maoist ‘model’ of insurgency
    ’cause it fucking works
    adios nalgonas!

  12. Gee whiz. Learn something people. Even if you hate parts of something, a smart man learns from everything in his sphere.

    Looking forward to more.

  13. Mr. Roberts,
    Regardless if you are correct or not on your history and contentions, what you do not seem to understand is a militia, belonging to one, or organizing one, is so out of context of what the majority of us believe is a remedy for what ails this nation, you can’t see the forest for the trees.

    Your contention a militia will not work unless it is organized as you believe it needs to be to be valid misses the point, if militias are a viable component of redress, it would have happened already.
    Don’t you get it?
    Its frankly amazing you miss this.

    You are trying to make an issue out of something which isn’t an issue of any consequence. There are no militias in America worthy of the name.
    There is a reason for that. And that reason has nothing to do with operational, material, intelligence, or political fitness, or will.

    Honestly, you are bordering on delusions of granduer by making a mountain over a mole hill with this militia stuff. I don’t mean that in a pejorative or insulting manner. You are missing something entirely that is essential in your equation here.

    Will you set aside your prejudices and assumptions, and take a different perspective in the light given into consideration.
    I’ll warn you, it is going to be counter to everything I believe I see you believe in if your posts here and comments are any indication.

    A lot of people who cherish their liberty today, here and now, not historically, but people here today, and the resistance in armed violent fashion you think is only the purview of traditional properly organized American style militias, are two totally different animals.
    It isn’t going to happen Mr. Roberts.
    And it isn’t going to happen, not because they are not prepared, either to your standards, or anybodies else’s, it isn’t going to happen, because, an entirely different kind of insurgency and so called “4th Generation” warfare is going to happen in America. The old models of war since Westfallah are history.
    You are way behind the curve Mr. Roberts. Your thinking and philosophy about resistance, militias, revolutions, and civil war are going to be left in the dust of history.
    What is going to happen in these United States is going to be another 5000 year leap. It isn’t going to follow any predictable path from history or experience.
    A lot of people here don’t know how to tell you this, but their instincts and sense of place and time, and destiny, is telling them these models of militias you and many other militarily experienced men are outmoded. Unsuitable to the political and cultural imperatives we as civilians and Freemen face.
    Your barking up the wrong tree Mr. Roberts. Your right for the wrong reasons. You don’t know what you don’t know here. Personally, I think you have to change your thinking entirely, or you will never grok what I am trying to convey to you.

    If I could put it in the simplest terms, Liberty is something that is constantly evolving. So too those who hold to it and live by it. So too is the culture surrounding them. That makes it all upstream of politics, the state, tyranny, even upstream of war and established doctrine and thinking.
    And Liberty is on the cusp of a new paradigm. A sea change is about to take place in the evolution of Liberty, and the thinking and the dynamics of those who hold dear to liberty as consequence have no bearing on what you are saying about militias. It is why you are frustrated in your attempts and getting nowhere with it with most of us.
    You make it personal, when you mistake us for being pig headed and ignorant. We are not. Simply,

    Whether you, or anyone else with an understanding of military arts politics and strategy find the advent of it palatable or acceptable, leaderless resistance is going to take on an entirely revolutionary new meaning.
    It will begin slowly, a tiny spark here, a little pinprick there, isolated acts, independent symbols of resistance. Like the Bundy Ranch, spontaneous.
    It is the only way. We are surrounded, the standard fair of norms of insurgency and resistance are not feasible in this world we live in today.
    Organizing a militia today in the state of administrative tyranny and its all seeing Eye of Mordor is just plain suicide. No matter how you think it should be done. It will not be effective like you think it will be even if it is formed as you believe it should. Why do you think there is a defining lack of good leadership in what militias do exist to begin with? People with those smarts and wherewithal to organize robust “legal” militias understand the deck is purposefully stacked against success because the state has rigged the game my friend, and they are drooling for the chance to go after any militia worth its salt by any means neccessary.

    No matter what you and your fellow proponents contend Mr. Roberts, this time around, its grass roots all the way. beginning to end. Its consent, refusal to comply, leaderless resistance, underground insurgency, and a plurality without a singular leader that is creating the next kind of insurgency. Open source revolt and abolition.
    And by the time the old hats and thinkers, the politicians, tyrants and influential realize it exists for what it is, it will be too late to stop it. militias won’t have anything to do with it.
    It will leave guys like you Mr. Roberts who believed they understood it all in the dust.

    • I believe this is my first comment here after reading numerous articles and posts. I appreciate your civil response and can’t agree with you more. I think you have succinctly illustrated a coming reality. Humans are incredibly adaptive. Here in the US, we are exceptional, having breathed liberty since birth to boot. We will either succeed or be the constant harassing thorn until the regime collapses, then to resume rightful liberty. What was started here in the American Revolution can’t be undone, can’t be contained. In time it may not exist on our own soil but the seeds we have scattered to the wind will take root, have taken root.

      • You said it Red. You should say a lot more Brother, them are some fine thoughts you wrote right there.

        It can’t be undone. It can never be undone.
        I think that is why the world has gone mad. Since the moment liberty was born, the dark side of man has tried to tyrannize the world. To stamp out freedom. To destroy self determination. It has built to this point in time. And no matter how much tyranny is imposed, how bloody or totalitarian the evil part of the human race is in its quest to destroy liberty, liberty just evolves, becomes stronger, and bursts into the light from every direction.
        Its motive power can never be stopped. What is happening right now is the penultimate event in human history.
        And liberty wins.

        • “What is happening right now is the penultimate event in human history.”

          What a line…talk about precision!

      • “What was started here in the American Revolution can’t be undone, can’t be contained.”

        Speaking of great lines, there’s one. That’s why it would behoove the rational to understand what was started.

    • Doug, you have fleshed out my perception (above) nicely. Scientifically speaking, the Theory of Dissipative Structures applies, and we are reaching the stage of extreme perturbation. Fancy way of saying that the old rules are over and don’t know it yet… Politics/war/life is local…

  14. Centurion_Cornelius

  15. Cassandra (of Troy)

    W.D. Roberts II/30Sept15,

    First, the obligatory,:

    How DARE you come to This Realm Of Patriot HEROES® & sow your DEFEATIST, TREASONOUS, GOVTL ARSE LICKING DRIVEL! YOU, sir, SHOULD be ASHAYMED but likely won’t be as you’re a Self-Admitted System Apparatchik® & therefore unencumbered by such human attributes. Damn YOU, sir, & f*** you as well, & remember that there WILL be A RECKONING that Quislings like YOU will NOT escape!

    Now that the de rigueur reflexive condemnation is on the record, on to the assessment of your statement. In sum, there’s nothing I read that I disagreed w/ & especially appreciated the ‘psych eval’ of many in the proto-Maquis Americain. LOTS of Bah Gawd/You Better Be Believin’/Boah I Tell Ye/THEY better WATCH OUT fer ME/MY BUNCH! cammie clad peacockery, masculinity validation, & pudendum proportion competitiveness about generally in the ‘movement’ but not, from what I’ve seen/heard, enough of the cold, hard, unemotional thinking that’s vital for a resistance force to do to have even a reasonable chance of succeeding against an opponent who’s materially superior.

    That doesn’t mean nothing’s been/is being done, this site/others have done/are doing invaluable work & need to continue & expand, but despite those efforts not nearly enough’s been done (imo) in 2 (again imo) key areas, 1 materiel & the other philosophical. You touched on the materiel aspect, a.k.a. ‘the sinews of war’, in your references to the 1st/1776 & 2d/1861 Revolutions/elsewhere. Typically, the extent of the discussion’s usually short-term/tactical w/ a smattering of mention about the strategic. E.g., those in oil/gas/coal production/processing regions believe they’re sitting pretty (‘we have all the fuel & if anyone wants to use it they’ll have to deal w/ us, ha ha!’), those in food production/processing areas have a similar viewpoint as do those w/ mineral assets/mfg ability/tech/chemicals/etc., etc., & all think they’ll be more than able to not only keep what they have but also prosper & w/o outside aid. I once asked someone who’d been expostulating about how his region’d be just fine since it had beaucoup chemical mfg ability (& as such wouldn’t have to worry much about supplying its mil & civ &, by implication, anyone else also, hint hint, you NEED us & we DON’T need YOU) if it could self-produce/easily acquire the base elements that its chem industry would need to supply just its own mil/civ. Never got a response, zippo, not even crickets.

    That, to me, shows a serious (& possibly fatal) lack of circumspection regarding the basic logistical facts of mil & civ existence & that affliction’s unfortunately quite common. Having the potential to provide all the ______ you/others would ever need’s great, but if you don’t have the requisite things to realize said potential & subsequently protect it you’ve essentially nothing but illusion for sustenance. Same for oil/gas/coal/biofuels, mfg, tech, weapons/ammo, med supplies, transportation,…… Some have made efforts to resolve this failing, but from what I’ve seen/heard it’s (imo) unlikely that they’ll get very far due to the attitude mentioned previously. A modicum of personal/regional/organizational pride isn’t necessarily bad, but when it metastacizes into para-religious chauvinism all the resistance’s opposition has to do is egg it on then get out the beer/popcorn/chaise lounges & watch (& HEAVILY publicize) the suicide.

    That’s my view of that part of your statement & I thank you for whatever attn you may give it.

    Btw, re: The 1903 Militia Act
    In case you may be unaware of/forgotten about it, Perpich v. Dept. of Defense cemented the NGs status in relation to the 2A militia & has been quite useful to beat anti-2A cultists w/ whenever they try peddling the “the NG is the 2A militia & if you’re not in the NG you don’t get to have guns” line. And on the chance you don’t have it here it is.: I also happened to fall upon the following item & would appreciate your opinion of it.:

  16. Petition……? That is effective for your local city council member, elected county official, or maybe a state house rep, but beyond that they are too insulated to be approached. The American people have petitioned by blowing up phone lines, giving Republicans the House and Senate, but still our voices have fallen upon deaf ears. War is being waged on the American citizen. From economic warfare i.e. the bust in the oil and natural gas industry (which is killing me), due to Saudi flooding of the market, to manufacturing jobs and factories being outsourced, to no tariffs beings imposed on companies doing the outsourcing. For a so called global market, the American people aren’t even getting hind teat. Next we go to cultural warfare being waged upon the American citizen, and this I find the most egregiously treasonous. If ever war crimes tribunals against the American way of life was convened, the media would be up there with Goering and Himler. Along with that cultural warfare we wade into physical bloodshed on American soil, from immigrants killing women on piers, to shooting up recruiting stations. Granted natives can commit crimes, but the last time I heard of a non Muslim committing mass murder was OK City. Which leads me to the legalized sexual assault of crying children and ripping off of fecal bags of disabled persons by the Schutz Staffel at airports. Being a history buff, you KNOW, who the Schutz Staffel are. I would actually like to compare them ironically to another government agency, with the same SS abbreviation who protects a Stalinistic mad man for some reason. I’m an Iraq Combat Vet, history conesiour, and love my country and it’s history, good or bad, but it has been utilized mostly for life saving good versus bad, unlike most nations or peoples.
    Bill, I can agree with a lot of what you are saying about “militias”, the fed would love nothing more than to catch idiots. But eventually there will be no hiding when it comes to socialist/communist lust, LUUUUST, FOR POWER. This is not like a hurricane you can just ride out, they will come for you eventually.

    • Jarhead,

      “….to no tariffs beings imposed on companies doing the outsourcing.”

      Those lack of tariffs you complain about are the result of a traitorous Democrat president and a traitorous U.S. Congress. They sold fUSA down the toilet under the guise of being “humanitarian” to the Communist Chinese.

      The Chicom “invasion” of product made in Red China with the names of American companies on the packaging is courtesy of former Philanderer-in-Chief William J. Clinton and the traitors of the Republican-controlled 106th Congress (1999-2000).

      For starters:

      Read here:

      And here:

      Per the above, you get the gist of the sellout by the bastard in the West Wing and his co-conspiratorial traitors on Capitol Hill.

      Manufacturing creates wealth. Ask the Red Chinese. And look at once was a great manufacturing nation, now no longer sovereign, the former United States of America.

  17. Ok, I don’t know about other states, but I do know a LITTLE about the two states I live in, Washington and Idaho (I own property and live in both). We have constitutional militia units in both. The constitutions they follow, and under which they are authorized, are the State constitutions. Both Idaho and Washington constitutions include sections authorizing organized militias (the Guard units…with paid training, uniforms, rank, etc.) and unorganized militias (which is stated to be all able-bodied male state citizens from 18-45). The unorganized militia can be called to serve at the governor’s request. All the militias in our two states try to work closely with our appropriate local sheriff (as we are organized by county). We choose to organize and train together so that if we are needed by our county sheriff to aid him and his deputies in a time of crisis, we will be able to work together and help our neighbors, instead of running around not knowing what to do. We have no rank (because our state constitutions don’t authorize it for the unorganized militia), although we do have officers who have titles, not rank (CO, XO, Finance, Training, Supply, Medical Officers, etc). These are administrative positions and are usually voted on by the group each year…if a person is doing a good job in his position and wishes to retain it, he usually stays in it for a while. We do try to acquire uniforms (not the current military, but usually an older out-of-date style, so we are not mistaken for Guard members). This is primarily for unit cohesion and if we are ever truly needed, so we can recognize each other. We do try to have meet-and-greets with each other’s units across county and state lines, so we get to know each other, and we invite other units to attend our larger training events, and we attend theirs (FTX’s). Again, so we can more effectively work together if there is a state-wide crisis.

    This is how we do it up here, and I believe it is similar in the other western states, but I haven’t read their constitutions, so I can only speak about my two states. It may be very different in the rest of the country.

    Thank you. I do enjoy reading your articles, I always learn from them.


      Miss Judy Ann: Thank you for the info on the Idaho unorganized militia. As a new resident, I will have to check it out. But since you hang out in the People’ Soviet Socialist Republic of Washington, I have a question for you.
      How do you plan to deal with that fat fascist DHS lickspittle “Sheriff Ozzie” and his MRAPS that he and his minions in Spokane County plan to use against “Tea Partiers” and “Constitutionalists”?

  18. As a retired commissioned officer in the United States Navy, I never questioned the differences between the enlisted oath and the oath taken by officers. But about 10 years ago, I read them both and noted the difference (and as noted above). The oath an officer takes expressly removes the phrase: “I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.” That the author proffers the differences between the two oaths as “, …’obeying the orders of the President of the United States and those appointed over me’ is not required as officers have only the chain of command to follow. Enlisted soldiers are also subject to orders from other enlisted soldiers of higher rank.” With all due respect that explanation seems woefully inadequate. I am not a military history scholar, but there seems a more logical explanation for the differences between the two.

    The enlisted oath discusses two responsibilities: the oath to the Constitution and the Oath to the CINC. However, there certainly “could be a time” where following the orders of the Commander-in-Chief results in violating the tenants of the Constitution. Think back to the Massacre of My Lai in Vietnam in 1968. 2nd Lt Calley’s order to slaughter the entire village was an unlawful order in gross violation of the Constitution, the law of War, and in the moral conscience of the United States. 2nd Lt Calley was ordered to proceed in the assault by the chain of command (Captain Medina), and once started, the carnage began. 2nd Lt. Calley said later of the incident in 2009: “I am very sorry….If you are asking why I did not stand up to them when I was given the orders, I will have to say that I was a 2nd lieutenant getting orders from my commander and I followed them—foolishly, I guess.”

    After the crap hit the fan over this, all of us – officers and enlisted – were warned about “illegal orders” or orders concerning which we are not required to follow – NO MATTER WHO ISSUES THEM. As a commissioned officer, upon receiving an order from my commander-in-chief that violates the Constitution, I have a serious conundrum: which to follow? My oath informs me, that no one is above the law – nor above the Constitution.

    One either takes their oath seriously, or blows with the wind and encourages tyranny. Either way, the road will be hard and dangerous, just like the road the Founders took. One must be strong and true to one’s beliefs – even unto death. But giving up the Constitutional order as originally inscribed in stone and putting Man’s whim in place of it, will bring on the loss of everything won over the last 225 years. Explain that to your grandchildren on your death bed.

    Since the author offered his explanation with a strand of pique and a dollop of condescension, what is his tripwire to stave off the ongoing destruction of America or does it even exist? Perhaps it is inevitable, or would fighting for the “neighborhood watch teams” only be acceptable after ISIS, Al Qaeda, Ansar al-Sharia or the Muslim Brotherhood show up in 5,000 (or more) two man teams a la “The Beltway Snipers (John Mohammad and Lee Boyd Malvo)?”

    I would definitely be interested in hearing more that was constructive rather than the above (which was really fun). I have often wondered what happened to the very strong “Civil Defense” concept during the Cold War when it was clear the “authorities” could never protect anyone? I believe the old-fashioned concept of self-reliance was replaced by the progressive mantra, “We don’t want you to protect yourself; We intend to protect you our way whether you like it or not. See, you won’t need all those scary guns anymore, Children.”

    Katrina is the Homeland Security Model – confiscate the guns, but get the Hell out before the bad guys come and have their way with the “civilians.”

    • Bravo, Sir, and thank you for that much needed dose of moral clarity.

      The expectation that a man’s word is his bond is practically unknown these days, so there is little wonder that quaint relics such as “oaths” are mere formalities with no force or influence for most that “swear” to them.

      Very well done, Sir.

      • 0-6, that is just it in a nutshell about that oath.
        I think it is a question of legitimacy, where the veracity of what Mr. Roberts and Mr. Barry rides on that bond of honor.
        You two want to bust our chops about our honor, integrity, and valour?
        If you and your brethren in the military honored that oath to begin with, would we all be in this mess to begin with?
        Would those running things have been able to usurp power and the USC if that oath was honored?

    • I agree with your analysis. As a commissioned officer, it was my duty to ensure every order I received or issued was lawful and in conformity with the Constitution of the United States, regardless of the source of the order.

  19. robroysimmons

    Max V put forth the idea of CUTT (civilian unconventional tactical team) for dealing with the coming shit show as it happens. Not some internet Kernel rambling on and about the latest “outrage” as highlighted by Drudge like the asshat Kernel who wants to get all worked up about the Iranian deal.

  20. Anyone bitching in the comments re-read this part:

    “It is not that I advise you not to organize and arm, quite the contrary. Just don’t flaunt and flash it all over the internet and announce you are a “militia” intent on saving your community from the government. That one you will lose.”

    Hopefully this is something ALL sides in the III% community can completely agree on. Gray man strategy is best strategy!

    • “Hopefully this is something ALL sides in the III% community can completely agree on.”

      Aw, gag me with a spoon. ALL will completely agree when ALL are completely dead.

      “Gray man strategy is best strategy!”

      Thanks for sharing. Then you should go gray man. Sandman believes the best strategy is open and transparent militia groups, so that’s what he does…and has a blast doing it. Me, I think philosophy is key, so that’s my focus. CA believes in widespread communication, so that’s what he does. Alan likes being tough, so he toughens himself up. Jon thinks it’s about the righteous Saviour(s) he read about, so he’s busy with the stories. Even poor Haxo…he thinks it’s only about the Joooooos, so that’s how he spends his brain-time.

      Get it? YOU figure out what YOU should do, and I’LL figure out what I should do. If one of us is irrational, then reality won’t go along and we’ll suffer the consequences. Or maybe we’re both rational and both reap the benefits of our beliefs. Either way, your life is yours and my life is mine. This is absolutely non-negotiable and ANY social construct MUST deal with this fact, else it is doomed to failure eventually. “You can’t fool Mother Nature.”


      Stop overthinking it and stop looking outward for answers. Please.

      • Jim I think you are saying is imperative.


        “Stop overthinking it and stop looking outward for answers. Please.”

        It is imperative we find it within ourselves to return to the crux of our liberty, because after all, it all begins with each of us, and only then will discover the ways and means to securing our freedoms.

        • ^^^^ This. Individual Liberty/Sovereignty is precisely the flip side of Individual Responsibility. Anything else is beyond one’s control and akin to masturbation, results wise…

  21. The militia movement could use more lawyers, gold, and silver and fewer kernels.

    • perhaps the General Services Administration could provide some lawyers

      • Or the local Gun Store.

        But then again when was the last time rugged individualists got together and passed a hat around for money for a bigger cause. No they cling to their federal fiat/company scrip.

  22. Save time—here’s the full translation:

    “Resistance is futile.”

    Personally I think those who buy it should go to sleep now. The rest of us will manage. Would’ve been a hoot in the 1770s.

    • Yes, that^^^^^^

    • These guys are forgetting one simple fact. They aren’t dealing with 3rd world rice and goat farmers. Those people are somewhat easier to manipulate and con. We’re talking about murikens here. Some understand the complexity of the situation – as some here have competently stated. If they want to be on the right side of history, they should share their taxpayer funded skill-sets and keep their out-dated viewpoints to themselves.

  23. The camo thing running around I don’t think is a good idea.

    If you insist on a uniform, try something in a plaid, or dickies work shirt and pants in a green or brown.

    Ditch the cargo pockets. They are next to useless except except for maybe a map.

    Btw plaid makes a nice camo in the right colors.

    • Uh, Dan takes care of nannying around here pretty well. Good chance there’s not a sufficient market for two.

      I mean, I like plaid a ton. But for crissakes already…

      • tfA-t,

        “First of all, these “professionals” are becoming increasingly irrelevant…. ….bill, you are fucked from both ends, if the people don’t get you first, your loving .gov will see to it. enjoy your swing at the end of a rope, or a bullet to the ear -traitor.”

        My sentiments exactly. Thank you.

        • Mr. Dan

          I believe it was Stalin who said “quantity has a quality all of its own”..
          There are at least 100 MILLION folks out there who have had enough. All the SF and .FED nazis who don’t side with those folks will find out that old uncle Joe was right. The berrys, billys, and the rest of the teat suckers are gonna learn the hard way… tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc

  24. Mr. Roberts,

    With all the love and respect I can muster in my heart, I understand your point of view but I think the situation is different than a simple government/militia model, or an insurgency/counterinsurgency model.

    Anyone who thinks that the modern militia represents an insurgency is stuck in the 1990s (and outside popular media and agents-provocateur it probably wasn’t a fair assessment even then).

    There is not only an insurgency under-way, but multiple parallel insurgencies competing for both mindspace and actual territory. Here is a partial list of just the ones politically acceptable to mention: drug gangs (plural), corrupt public officials at every level, racially motivated street gangs, unaccountable banking interests stealing property with fraudulent documents, hordes of invaders of every imaginable stripe (none of which with any aspirations of assimilation), organizations which shred living babies for profit… I could keep going but I think the point is made.

    Since the fedgov, judiciary and law enforcement at all levels has practically left the field (or is in more extreme cases actually complicit, either officially or through lack of its own internal oversight against rogue actors), the only potentially credible counterinsurgency even a remote speck on the horizon is the militia movement.

    Not recognizing the militia as the counterinsurgency, and not helping them in this role, would be a crucial mistake. I get the words on the papers about how things are supposed to be, but in the real world things are different, and that paper won’t stop gang X from killing your family and/or taking your stuff. If anything, that paper is threatening to get in your way if you or anyone else tries to stop gang X.

    And again, with all the love and respect in my heart, the COIN manual has failed in two ways: once against multiple national “enemies” in foreign wars despite all the fiat currency that can be printed to back them, and again in handling our current ongoing domestic insurgencies. I don’t doubt that you have a lot to add to the conversation, certainly more than I do, but those of us with relevant experience and training should be adapting our knowledge to reality as it exists today.

    Please use your expertise in insurgency/counterinsurgency to help those of us who are assholes-to-elbows dealing with an ongoing insurgency out here in the field. We’re running a series on public affairs on this site, I would be honored if you would contribute.


    • There is another aspect to this Tom in what your saying, and thank you for writing what you did here, it is most salient, and that is, when it begins to drop in the pot, almost everyone of us to a man is going to be caught in a world wind and everyone of us who believes they understand or have knowledge of how things are going to go down, and their part in it, is going to be a victim of that world wind.
      Not much is going to be like what we expected or prepared for, except the extremity of events will test us to the limits, and the realities of what happens will be the defining dynamic.
      Everything will change in ways most of us can only imagine.
      And what will count the most, is all we really have to guide us, our will, our honor, our grace, and our primal right of liberty.
      How we comport ourselves and the outcome of that won’t be dependent on a militia, or how many cases of ammo we have, or the bugout location we run to. It will be how we find a way to bind together, in small groups, hamlets, then as communities, or tribes and stand up for what is right.

  25. First of all, these “professionals” are becoming increasingly irrelevant. They really think they are the “end all”. If my memory serves me right, the u.s. and these lap dogs haven’t won a war in decades. What a waste of tax dollars to continue to pay out to these clowns. They do even less than the blue wall to protect and defend the CON-stitution- which, has also become irrelevant. This bill fellow is a ‘legend in his own mind’. Of course the lifers who come here to WRSA (because no one really goes to their websites)will continue to worship their betters till the end. The only thing they have to offer anyone is their skill-set which, BTW, we should not forget was paid for by us commoners, they can keep their philosophy to themselves. Oh, and this guy was a black-robed goon to boot… bill, you are fucked from both ends, if the people don’t get you first, your loving .gov will see to it. enjoy your swing at the end of a rope, or a bullet to the ear -traitor.

  26. For Gosh sake people. He isn’t saying you are wrong or that it can’t be done. He is giving you things to rethink so success can be a reality. The amount of cognitive dissonance here in this is astounding.

    If you are unwilling to assess everything and adapt it with new revelations and information the battle is already lost. None of you has fought in an American revolution, so no one has experience in it. We expect things to go a certain way with our understanding driving out thoughts.

    New ideas introduced should be considered and information disseminated. It’s called being adaptive.

    I read NOTHING in this guy’s post which said he was anti-patriot or thought the movement would fail. He simply told you to organize locally and keep your fucking mouth and keyboard quiet about it.

    If you are so caught up with the title “militia” that is hampers your critical thinking skills then you are a danger to those around you.

    • Bill Roberts

      Guess at least a few of you got it. For the rest, take it anyway you want it. If what I write really bothers you, do what I do, don’t read it. That’s what I do with most of the sour comments or those I see as irrelevant. Get over it. I am no more condescending than many of you. Difference is I can take it.

      • “Difference is I can take it.”

        Apparently not, as you just stated that you don’t read “most of the sour comments.” May I respectfully suggest that you hear the message of them–what they’re saying–instead of focusing on the emotion of it?

        Y’know, some say that’s the difference between men and women…men deal with the facts, women go with the emotion. That’s not intended to be any sort of slur or accusation, but the irony in this context is…well, it’s ironic.

        • Bill Roberts

          Say what you want. After a few lines of whining I know exactly what is being said. Why waste my time. Is has nothing to do with emotion, it has to do with the best use of time. And reading a bunch of responses whining about “I am a militia” is useless. Also, a bunch of the responses clearly illustrate the unwillingness or lack of ability to read what was presented in the first place. Nice try but now your wasting my time.

          • “Also, a bunch of the responses clearly illustrate the unwillingness or lack of ability to read what was presented in the first place.”

            Fair enough, but more than a few don’t illustrate that.

            Look, there are only two sides to this battle…those who believe consent is the proper manner for human action, and those who believe thuggery is the way to get what you want.

            There’s nothing else to it, except that those of us who believe in consent and willful trade as proper for human action, finally understand that there’s only one way to stop thuggery. Most military folk understood that all along, duh.

            This is not a tactical question; it’s a philosophical one. Either a person believes that forcing others is the way to accomplish what he judges as good social goals, else a person believes that people should be free to do as they wish and be stopped only defensively.

            I just believe it’s late in the day and time for folk to stand up and state their positions clearly and explicitly. I mean, it’s kinda tough to ask some engineer or architect to do that–which I do–when trained SF guys don’t have the balls to do it themselves.

            If you consider such matters a waste of your time. then that’s your business and your choice. When it comes to the War in which we all find ourselves, willingly or not, personally I find almost everything else a waste of time, at least philosophically. But hey, that’s me.

            • Like an old Marine said:”All human relationships are based on logic or on force.” The irony is that we the people are soon going to be forced to force the would be tyrants to revert to logic…

      • Anyone who knows me or read my decommissioned blog knows I am no collectivist and HATE the very idea of government as a ruling body. I read nothing in this essay except “to win, you must know how to win”.

        You men who are jumping up and down while examining every nuance and letter are missing the message.

        Who gives a shit how militia is defined or where the root latin is derived? Honestly, who the fuck cares? What has that to do with what is coming? You think .gov will realize you are “militia” in some epipheny and back down? Do any of your other ideas about this man (who you do not know) mean anything in the face of his message that to win you gotta get some shit straight? Sparks a statist? Really? WTF

        Come on people, we better get this together or we will all die alone on our hills. Please more Bill. I can learn from what you say without

        We can continue in our fantasies of meeting .gov on the glorious fields of battle or we can learn how to fucking win from people who know.

        Pete, I don’t blame you for killing the comments. Unbelievable

        • Wait one minute there 55six.

          “or we can learn how to fucking win from people who know. ”

          Really? REALLY? R. E. A. L. L. Y. ??????

          In my 53 years on this planet I don’t recall the u.s ever winning any war? Tell us all just what these guys have EVER won besides a taxpayer funded pension and medical benefits? I for one am all ears… I’m glad i left the service before this guy wrote the updated book on how to fail miserably. These types are the useful idiots who have caused this world to be at war with itself. They are nothing more than the (banker-controlled)CIA’s hit-men.

          • Brother, you are missing it again. Do you REALLY think your level of training and knowledge cannot be increased by listening to what a career military man has to say? Without ever hearing it because you read into what he said some offending definition and started attacking?

            There is such a thing as negative learning. Learning by listening to something/someone who you disagree with. Run with that, that you are listening to propaganda (if you must)….but listen and learn. I am betting a man of intelligence can pick out a nugget or 50 to use.

            I might not like a pest control guy’s ideas about the politics of pesticides but I am sure I can learn how to kill fucking bugs from him.

            • 55six.
              I just returned from an exhilarating day on one of the Great Lakes.

              BEYOND 5 NM OFF SHORE-
              946 PM EDT FRI OCT 2 2015


              The skipper of the vessel I had the pleasure of boarding today makes a damn good living with his skills.
              I listen to men who have proven themselves in the real world. Businessmen who made their FORTUNES being the best in their fields. All the .mil training in the world and $2. will buy an ice cream cone. Now if one of these professionals are actually making a gainful living with their skills, then there is something worthwhile to learn from them. If they are sitting back and bloviating about when they were young? not so much. So, is this guy actually doing something with his skills?

              • So, you would not have listened to an old Samuel Adams or Patrick Henry because they were no longer seeding revolution in their advanced years?

        • “Who gives a shit how militia is defined or where the root latin is derived? Honestly, who the fuck cares? What has that to do with what is coming?”

          THE AUTHOR CARED, that’s who. It was HIS opening salvo and it was HIS argument that was built upon it.

          Y’know, this whole thing is about individual responsibility…nanny Govco, the FSA, the tricked-out money…alll of it. Nobody gets a bye and that’s the whole point. Someone who presumes to tell others what they ought to do, even less so.

          Otherwise I agree with what you wrote. ALL information is useful, irrespective of from where it comes. True information, that is.

          • The point Jim, was that we cannot afford to argue over the definition regardless of who gives it or that it was given at all. It is not relevant to the goal, our goal (yes, Barry and Bill too) of creating an environment where Liberty is the Law.

            We wasted all this space and time dick measuring instead of diseminating useful information and discussing how to apply it. Threw out the noodles with the water instead of eating soup.

            We also, instead of building relationships by being bigger than our percieved foes inside our movement, embarrass ourselves with vicious name calling and innuendo. We further embarrass Pete at his house by attacking who he invited for our benefit. If you cannot respect the author, respect CA and his place of gathering.

            We could learn a few things from the collectivists, despite internal differences they know how to work toward a common goal and get it fucking done.

          • “Nobody gets a bye and that’s the whole point. Someone who presumes to tell others what they ought to do, even less so.”

            We NEED someone to tell us something, cause right now we are clueless.

            There will be leaders on the FreeFor side of this. They will emerge and they will tell you what to do if you are a part of it.

            Let’s get our shit together (together means …. all of us) and prepare to do this or let’s just go back to sleep where it’s much more comfortable and less worrisome.

            • Hey, I agree with you…especially about the necessity of information and skills. It’s the same as business, all about implementation. But you’re rather missing the point…leadership takes immense integration of lots of different angles and skills, the conceptual (moral) angle being the most important. It’s not about “dick measuring;” it’s about what’s true and false. It’s IMPOSSIBLE to win, at least in the long run, using the false. That’s not because I say so; it’s because reality rules.

              Leaders don’t “emerge” like the Sun rising; they learn and work at it. Nothing human is perfect, but that doesn’t mean “little errors” should slip by, especially when they’re offered as foundational, as in this case. Otherwise, the bad will inevitably edge out the good, which is what brought us here.

              • I don’t think Bill is plugging to be leader, just offering his knowledge for what you paid for it.

                Let’s absorb all we can and try to apply it as it seems to fit. 4GW here in the US is likely to be unlike any before it. We may need many different POV to see it through.

      • I would like to add a few comments about the masters of logistics here:
        1. Ran the Army out of radio batteries in late 2003 limiting the numbers of units that could be operational in Iraq for the COIN role
        2. Ran the entire force out of 5.56 ammo in 2005, requiring purchases from Israel, UK, and anybody else that could produce
        3. Current small arms ammo procurement is some 250mil rounds this year, at current OPTEMPO about a 6 month supply. Impact of a full on mobilization may be close to #2 above
        4. Current Hellfire max production is 6 per day from a single production line
        Therefore, may I suggest to you the US military is less than 5 industrial “accidents” away from total FUBAR.

    • “If you are so caught up with the title “militia” that is hampers your critical thinking skills then you are a danger to those around you.”

      X-ring. I’d be willing to read more from the author; scrolling past the playground stuff is easy.

  27. Once you are dead hanging from a tree they can pin whatever sign or title they want on you and no one will be able to question the label.

    Of course that goes equally for all of us, Politician, Tyrant, Patriot or Coward.

    When the time comes we will all fill a role. The titles of those roles will be varied but the facts will speak for themselves. You will fight for oppressive tyrannical, all invasive government or you will fight opposed to it. There will be no middle ground.

    • “There will be no middle ground.”

      Another candidate for The Klein Award: “What a line…talk about precision!”

    • Cassandra (of Troy)


      “Once you are dead……the label.”

      BINGO! And, per W.D. Roberts’ essay, FreeFor/any other ‘refusenik’ individual or group will be labeled as criminals/terrorists under whatever past/present/future law/s can be used such as the 1798/1918 Sedition Acts & subsequent attempts to revive them under various guises like the 1940 Smith Act & Jane Harman’s failed 2007 Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Act. Such behavior’s S.O.P. for Imperia & expecting otherwise is evidence of Williams Syndrome, ataxophobia/eleutherophobia, habenaephilia/rexophilia, delusion, or stupidity.

  28. Mr. Roberts: The US Navy was established by the Second Continental Congress on 13 Oct.1775, not in June as you wrote. The Army was established on 14 June, 1775, but 6 companies of Rangers were authorized on 2 June, 1775, by the same Congress.

  29. Back to “Western Rifle Shooting”, anyone have a .277 Wolverine? I’m thinking of re barreling an AR to that caliber.

    More gun stuff, less top down lectures?

    • Mike Bishop

      Logistics, dude.

      Stick with a common caliber, and be done with it.

    • Jackson,

      My assumption is you HAVE to be a gun-guy if you’re aware of and interested in that wildcat caliber. If you haven’t already read some of the info from this thread at you may find the commentary of value:

      I’m also thinking you’re already gunned up with a 5.56mm ARmalite or a Kalashnikov; a SHTF weapon. My guess is the Wolverine is just going to be for fun and education.

      Have fun and good shooting.

    • Jackson,
      Seems like an easy way to add an additional caliber to your AR platform, compared to some others.

  30. Mike Bishop

    Folks, quit throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    Were valid points put forth? Yes.

    Were there points put forth that are disagreeable? Sure.

    The “getting dressed down” articles always turn the comments section into a full-blown, foaming-at-the-mouth insane asylum.

    Learn what you can, take what is useful to you, and disregard what isn’t.

  31. The etymology of the word militia is from the Latin miles and –itia. The first meaning soldier and the second suffix referring to the state (governmental entity.)

    Nope. -itia means state as in ‘state of being’ or ‘existing as such’. It has nothing to do with government.

    • Thank you. It’s the source of the common English “ess” suffix.

      “You can’t possibly think that anyone is going to pay any attention to your ranting and raving except maybe somebody of like attitude. This is not the way of engendering cooperation and change. Please take note that I do not intend my tone to be condescending in general.”

      So Sir—WHY did you offer that as the etymology of “-itia” right off the bat, and will you be as quick to correct the error?

      • Bill Roberts Must have been late when I wrote that. Still changes nothing in that the militias are subject to the orders of the government. Period.

        • “that the militias are subject to the orders of the government. Period.”

          You’re confusing the concepts with reality. It’s why I focus on epistemology. Many of the militias out there these days, are NOT subject to anyone’s orders. That’s the way it IS, any of your wishes notwithstanding. Period.

          If you seek to gain the respect, let alone following, of rational men, then it’s on you to recognize the truth of things. I’m sure your courage in battle is unassailable, but do you have THAT much courage outside of it?

          • “that the militias are subject to the orders of the government. Period.”
            “You’re confusing the concepts with reality.” and “Many of the militias out there these days, are NOT subject to anyone’s orders.” The “reality” is that if they are not subject to the government, they are “A Militia”, not “The Militia”. Here’s an example to try and explain away, it’s from the Militia Act of 1795
            “Sec. 5. And be it further enacted, That every officer, non-commissioned officer or private of the militia, who shall fail to obey the orders of the President of the United States in any of the cases before recited, shall forfeit a sum not exceeding one year’s pay, and not less than one month’s pay, to be determined and adjudged by a court martial; and such officers shall, moreover, be liable to be cashiered by sentence of a court martial: and such non-commissioned officers and privates shall be liable to be imprisoned by the like sentence, or failure of payment of the fines adjudged against them, for the space of one calendar month for every five dollars of such fine.” Sounds like the Constitutional requirement is that they have to be subordinate to the Gov, don’t it?

            • Well, then, MDT, you just go ahead and admit that your Bushbastards “Pre-Enactor” group will serve the state.

              That what you mean to say????

            • Not sure what that was about, MDT. Surely you can distinguish between words on paper and actions in reality. “Many of the militias out there these days, are NOT subject to anyone’s orders.” I can’ttell if you’re trying to deny that or not, but it’s a plain simple fact no matter what words are to be found on any paper. Just look.

              Besides, your Supreme Court ruled this summer that the words in statutes don’t count anyway, so it’s just as valid to cite Alice in Wonderland as any statute.

              • The words on paper is what these guys are saying validates there claim to being “Constitutional Militia”, and they use it like it gives them some authority they don’t have. We have moral authority and that’s it. Personally, I don’t give two shit whether a piece of paper says I can do anything. I have the RIGHT to self defense, we have the RIGHT to train to be an efficient, effective self defense force. These aren’t privileges, and I’ll be Damned if anyone will treat it as such. “Keep it local. Keep it sane. Keep it military. Keep it disciplined.” is how it should be. These guys need to get over trying to make their history lesson suit their paradigm when convenient, and disregarding it when it does not. Hell, most are still stuck on patch design and the camo they’re gonna use instead of the important things. I’m not takin’ orders from any politician, and that makes me part of “A Militia” (I do not call myself or my group “militia”, we use NPT) in the general sense of the term, not “The Militia” that is spoken about in the Constitution and all the follow on documents.

                • Oh, okay; thanks for clarifying. I agree, assuming I understand you correctly. No…of course no Constitution could give any militia any “authority” over someone without that person’s consent. If they’re saying that it does, then I concur that it’s fantasy.

                  But frankly, I find that a truth that most so-called Constitutionalists seem to miss far more than most militia participants. I’m admittedly dealing with a limited sample, but not that limited.

  32. ALCON,

    Gentlemen, for what it is worth.

    I found Roberts’ essay interesting. Much of it I could appreciate. Much of it I could not. However, there was one sentence he wrote that stood out amongst the many I took umbrage with. That sentence being:

    “Anyway we have a term for people who break the law, we call them criminals.”
    – – William David “Bill” Roberts II – –

    Then for me, there is the below quotation from the Founding Father who I believe was one of greatest proponents of Liberty & Freedom. His quote here challenges Mr. Roberts’ above quote:

    “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.”
    – – Thomas Jefferson – –

    Of all the remarks Mr. Roberts II made in his essay, his one sentence quoted above caused me to disregard his entire essay.

    • The LAW? A politician can have a bodyguard with a fully automatic sub-machine gun and sidearm, whereas a person fearful of death or serious bodily injury who carries in same said “gun free zone” submits themselves to possible forfeiture of lifelong self defense rights, fines, a Felony status that will hinder work possibilities, and countless years in an animalistic asylum one may never leave alive. Sounds like ole Tom would find our current practices abhorrent, especially with today’s Oregon shooting, which seems to have happened in a ” gun free zone”. Maybe they need bigger “no gun” signs, or maybe the criminal who is intent on a dozen counts of capital felony murder could give a rats cock bag less about an unlawful carrying of a weapon felony much less the sign.

      • Mr. Jarhead,

        “A politician can have a bodyguard with a fully automatic sub-machine gun and sidearm….” etc., etc.

        You are, once again, on target…..accurately.

        Those in “government” have become the ruling elites. They exist for us to pay THEM homage. They are no longer public servants. And have not been for quite some time.

      • That was the whole point of the disarmament zones. Its classic Alynski/cultural Marxist crisis as a means 101.

        Look how useful to their narratives gun free zones have been.
        Social engineering by mass murder.
        There are no coincidences in all this tragedy going down with guns.
        It is social engineering with a fucking purpose.
        Even these two jamokes here, Barry and Bill.
        This is all about guns.
        It all comes down to guns.
        Who has guns, who doesn’t have guns.
        Who rules with guns, and most important, who is ruled by guns.

  33. The ‘must bow to authority’ folks will be fighting the last war.

    When things get sporty, I think we’ll find it doesn’t fit any of the prior models and a new way of war will be required. Americans are adaptive. What works will propagate. What doesn’t will be left. Those that do not adapt, Mr. Roberts and Mr. Barry, will be dead or ignored.

  34. All I’m gonna say about this is that if you’re gonna try replacing the government, you better have something to replace it with, or someone else will come along and do it for you. You may not like what they come up with.
    And all your guns and gear and posturing ain’t going to fix it…
    May you get the results you deserve delivered to you in an interesting manner.

    • Sparks—Your “deserve” there tells us your judgment of the matter. Is that your final answer?

      • Depends on what you (think) you deserve. My judgement has been known for some time now. If you have a problem with it, you can find me most weekend evenings at the following coordinates: 44.4055N, 104.3799W.

        • ” If you have a problem with it, you can find me…”

          Got it. Thanks for confessing your approach to problems so publicly. You can rest assured it’s noted…by thousands of people, worldwide.

      • Mike Bishop

        Jim, I can’t speak for Sparks, but it’s been my experience that folks don’t get what they want in life, they get what they deserve.

        This is summed up simply as, “play stupid games – win stupid prizes.”

        • That’s fine Mike, and I agree. “Reality is the final arbiter” and all that. But that wasn’t what I was asking of Sparks; I was asking about HIS judgment. This should be clear from the wording.

          He basically answered and I took his answer as different from what you imply here. To instantiate the principle, he’s basically saying that Sandman, for example, “deserves” bad shit to happen to him…IN THE JUDGMENT OF SPARKS.

          Well okay, noted. About all I can offer is my own personal judgment, and it’s admittedly in the absence of intimate familiarity with any of the people. But if I gotta make a decision on the spot, I’ll be standing with Sandman and his folk any day of the week and anyone who says guys like him “deserve” bad shit, can–IMO–fuck off and die.

          Hopefully that’s clear enough.

          • YUP. Once again these has-been “professionals” still think they are relevant. They’re lost in their past. No one gives a flying fuck about following orders from some fool who has more stripes than the other guy.. Personally, I hope this country is burned to the ground along with every pseudo hero in it. Get a fucking job.

      • Oh, here we go…fake name user. I’m surprised it took this long. CA, do you want me to start using a handle? Not a big deal either way; as I mentioned, my time here is waning.

        “badass on the Internet”…no projection there, huh?

    • Sparks,

      You statists with your “I love other people telling me how to live my life”, government (Big .gov, correct?) proponents crack me up !

      Tell 58,000 dead Americans and 100,000’s of dead Vietnamese about the “results they deserve”, courtesy a meddling, intrusive, tyrannical and imperialistic USA government. Let’s not let the Bush klan off as they embroiled us in an undeclared but recognized conflict now reaching twenty-five (25) YEARS in duration and counting ! Love that government. Oh, and Tricky Dick Nixon and his sending the USD down the shitter when he took us off the gold standard. How about that soetoro-obama….who has attacked our Liberty and Freedom more than any POTUS ever has. Soetoro-obama, Barry Hussein, the lying, Al-Taqiyya practicing, Muslim POS, with a complicit Congress and SCOTUS elites (you know them as government) sending fUSA and it’s citizens to the brink of 3rd World status. You mean THOSE governments ? How about this group of government “heroes” you love so much….Bill Clinton and the Republican-controlled Congress who sent our mobs, our future and our sovereignty down the rat hole with their passage of HR 4444. Legislation, “law” brought to you by your beloved government that would turn Communist China into a powerful manufacturing nation while fucking Amerika where the sun don’t shine ! Trillions of dollars of trade deficit with the Chicoms. Millions left without family sustaining-wage jobs. But hey Sparks, you loves you some “government”, eh ?

      We’ve been getting those “results” we DID deserve by supporting these criminal enterprises you love so much Sparks. You know, the scounxrels you love that you call “government”. And as far as myself or anyone deserving “results” delivered us in an interesting manner, you seem to forget this favorite axiom of mine:

      Tracers work BOTH ways !

    • Sparks
      Respectfully, I think the ‘Bill of Rights’ will do just fine.
      A better foundation for a government of free people I can’t think of.
      It will take a lot of work.

      • DW,
        OK. So you’re going to stick with the Bill Of Rights. That foundation of government has failed, as we see today. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here having this discussion.
        How do you propose to fix it?
        What countermeasures do you have in place against future failures, both accidental and deliberate?
        Who in the 3% scene has the leadership and public relations skills to be the front man in the operation?
        When the majority of the voters get pissy because it upset their status quo apple cart, how are you going to deal with them?

        • “When the majority of the voters get pissy because it upset their status quo apple cart, how are you going to deal with them?”

          Is that a serious question? I can understand asking how someone’s gonna deal with looters and thugs, but pissy voters? Really?

          I’d suggest the wiser question would be to ask the pissy voters what THEY intend to do when free men and women gather the courage to finally say, “No!”

          That time’s a’comin’, and I already know their answer—“Blank-out.” Seems to me there are enough real challenges that it isn’t necessary to invent false ones, but that’s me.

          • In a democracy, political opposition is a real and serious problem, especially when your side is a minority, especially one as small as 3%.
            You want to run a country, you have to deal with it, especially if you want to go back to a constitutional republic model that already suffered a few failure modes.

            • “In a democracy…”

              Whew, are you behind the curve on this stuff. Mob rule was recognized as an invalid approach to civil human action many centuries ago. Yeah some still swear by it, but nobody with a lick of sense or decency.

              “You want to run a country…”

              Who, me? Why would I want to do something as impossible as that, and rotten even if it weren’t impossible?

              Must be thinking of someone else; I wonder who.

              • My apologies, didn’t notice you were a tourist.

                • Oh, did you know I’m a sucker for cute, or was it a lucky guess? The Landmark Forum calls it being on the field or in the stands; that’s a good one too, I think.


    Since “militia” is now such a pejorative term, I will call myself “a grayman of one” or a “partisan of one”. It would seem that any group which bands together out of outrage or concern over what is taking place in Amerika is going to be targeted by the FEDGOV ORCS and their snitches. If that doesn’t happen, the well-meaning useful idiots of the PTB will be opining how stupid and clueless they are because they do not pay attention to what is written by these “experts” on this website.
    Do your research. Plan and train within the limits of your physical and financial ability. Do not waste your time talking to Tea Party-States Rights-Militia-Types at gun shows and county fairs. Ihr kommt. The latest false flag at the Community College in Roseburg, OR is just another straw in the wind. It’s happening all around you. Get ready, for God’s sake.

  36. Clearly Mr. Roberts believes he has something to contribute to the enduring cause of American liberty. You know… the right to Life, Liberty, and Property (If you think it’s the pursuit of happiness you are confused). I get the feeling he thinks he’s better than the “regular” American man because he wrote the COIN manual AND sat on the legal bench. Sir your work on the COIN manual is probably more worthy than anything you did on the bench, unless you actually understand the Bill of Rights and ruled in favor thereof while on the bench. Just how many “wars” has the U.S. gov/DoD won using this great COIN manual of yours? As one of the earlier posters postulated, I believe the UPCOMING “unpleasantness” will have little resemblance to any insurgency seen in history, so looking back in this case will be useless except to find out what did NOT work. Mr Roberts seems to believe that being in the militia is a bad thing unless you are in the .gov NG. I guess there is just too much bad PR from the FASCIST govt suck up lame stream media regarding the word “militia”. Nonetheless Mr. Roberts, the militias, whether you like them or not, definitely have a role to play, so why not help them with organization or tactics training. You don’t have to be a member to do that.

    At this point, I’m willing to listen to any tactical, political or philisophical ideas that Mr. Roberts or SFC Barry believes may be relevant to WINNING the upcoming unpleasantness. As to whether or not I think those ideas are worth a damn remains to be seen; I’d have to read them and make my own assessment. Yes Mr. Roberts I am capable of thinking for myself unlike 99% of American citizens today. I know one tactic that has defeated the US forces (regular and SF) from VN to the “sandbox”… raise the black flag of give no quarter and no surrender has been a winning recipe for quite a long time now. The only other idea I have is peaceful secession from these communist and socialist SOBs, which is my preferred solution. But I’m sure you and many others are brainwashed into the bootlicker cult of Abraham Lincoln, so the idea of secession just does not compute in your brain.

    I’m begging you SF guys who see the writing on the wall, (i.e. we are NOT voting our way out of this crap) for the love of God stop with the “I was SF and I’m better and smarter than you” attitude… it’s just not the way to win friends and influence people. Besides, you might not be smarter than others you are trying to convince or train… sadly you just think you are. Maybe a more humble approach is warranted. Give us your tactical ideas or any idea and then give us your resume some time later. Just sayin it MIGHT be a better way to go. I understand the mind set and mind control the .gov has over SF… best of the best of the best and all that crap. Lone Survivor mean anything to you? I have a ton of respect for the SF guys out there actually doing something… Mountain Guerilla, MVT, Sparks31 and others. They are actually training folks in basic and advanced tactics, comms, intel, etc. you know USEFUL knowledge when needed; not just sitting at a keyboard typing resistance is futile. Ok, you want to help, give us some idea or tactic to mull over.

    Please allow me to quote a few DEAD men… for both philosophical and historical purposes. As usual you are free to disagree.

    “Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away, and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge, which God hath provided for all men, against force and violence. Whensoever therefore the legislative shall transgress this fundamental rule of society; and either by ambition, fear, folly or corruption, endeavor to grasp themselves, or put into the hands of any other, an absolute power over the lives, liberties, and estates of the people; by this breach of trust they forfeit the power the people had put into their hands for quite contrary ends, and it devolves to the people, who have a right to resume their original liberty …” – John Locke

    Mr. Roberts at this point we are “absolved”. End of discussion in that regard.

    “And yet, no weapons, no matter how powerful, can help the West until it overcomes its loss of willpower. In a state of psychological weakness, weapons become a burden for the capitulating side. To defend oneself, one must also be ready to die; there is little such readiness in a society raised in the cult of material well-being. Nothing is left, then, but concessions, attempts to gain time and betrayal.”
    – Alexander Solzhenitsyn

    For all you guys in the Militia or other unnamed community defense units… are you ready to die yet?

    [The] constitutional security for `the right to keep and bear arms’ implies the right to use them … This is the only remedy suggested by the Constitution, and is necessarily the only remedy that can exist, when the government becomes so corrupt as to afford no peaceable one. The people have a legal right to resort to this remedy at all times, when the government goes beyond, or contrary to, the Constitution. And it is only a matter of discretion with them whether to resort to it at any particular time. – Lysander Spooner, “The Right of Resistance,”

    We do have a right to “use them” at any and all times. Not much to fault with Lysander from a philosophical viewpoint.

    “I am not well versed in history, but I will submit to your recollection, whether liberty has been destroyed most often by the licentiousness of the people, or by the tyranny of rulers? I imagine, Sir, you will find the balance on the side of tyranny: Happy will you be if you miss the fate of those nations, who, omitting to resist their oppressors, or negligently suffering their liberty to be wrested from them, have groaned under intolerable despotism. Most of the human race are now in this deplorable condition…”
    —Patrick Henry, June 5, 1788

    Funny how history has a way of not exactly repeating itself but it’s pretty damn close. Patrick has it right… Most of the human race IS now in this deplorable condition…

    They will eventually overplay their position and then not understand what the hell happened.


    Grey Ghost

    P.S. Got rope?

    • Absolutely right on the money in all particulars.

      Kudos and thanks for a fine rebuttal and summation.

      More elitism is not what we need, nor authoritarian experts on how to lose a war.

    • Grey Ghost,

      Thank you for your most interesting and thought-provoking remarks.

    • THANK YOU, GG for you thoughts on this!!!

      I, like many here WANT to learn from articles and their contributors. Sadly, some authors prefer the stuff down our throats approach and have no interest in expounding further via interaction with their readership. If I want to read “gospel”, I’ll turn to my Bible.

    • outlawpatriot

      Like I said, “a condescending prick”. 😉

      Well said sir.

  37. outlawpatriot

    From recent study:

    “In effect, the government marched two armies west to suppress the whiskey rebels. The militia corps was composed largely of draftees and substitutes who enlisted for the bounties they received. Almost to the man in some brigades these were the flotsam of early American society; poor, property less, often foreign born, these soldiers were often in it for pittance they received in pay or because they had no viable alternative. The other army consisted of gentlemen volunteers who joined for a variety of personal, patriotic, and/or political reasons. Militiamen were poorly clad and had no service uniforms; the gentlemen dressed in a rainbow of colors and designs unique to each brigade. According to William Findley, the very word “militia” became an epithet attached by officers and volunteers only to the lower class regiments. “To have a militia distinguished into gentlemen privates and plebian privates is wholly anti-republican,” Findley later reflected. “In the late expedition, the name militia was understood to have the same idea fixed to it as plebian or lower order of citizens. An army arranged in this manner can never have confidence within itself, nor embrace the confidence of their fellow citizens.”” “The Whiskey Rebellion, Frontier Epilogue to the American Revolution” by Thomas P. Slaughter

    Seems it started long ago. God, I love history. 🙂

  38. outlawpatriot

    Gotta say something. My friend Peter is putting forth these two questionable characters, Bugs Barry and Bobbin’ Billy. I find them repulsive.

    If I were pickin’, I would go with Max and Mosby. They are more in tune with my view and from a historical perspective more correct than the fuckers Peter is pushing at the moment.

    Make no mistake, I have a few nits to pick with both. With regard to Max, it drives me insane that a fucking Brit understands and knows more than three quarters of the fucks that comment here. Mosby is for sure rough around the edges, but I have no truck with that. I would fall in and dress right dress with either one. Bugs and Bobbin’, not a chance. They are the fucking enemy.

    I’ve trained with Max. I stole one of his classes and teach it down here. I figure I’ve trained about 100 or so with it. As soon as I can I’m gonna hook up with Mosby. I will steal his shit too. And train my people accordingly.

    I will augment that training with my research on who and what we are.

    That’s my view and my goals.

    Don’t like it? Don’t care. 🙂

    • They are the fucking enemy.


      • One espouses a catholic faith based monarchy. I t seems to me that that in itself is sufficient to identify him as an enemy of Rightful Liberty, which is as close as anything we have around here to an agreement in principle.

        The present example is less egregious but nevertheless seems an avowed statist, authoritarian and an elitist, stuck in the failed paradigm which has engendered our predicament.

        Frankly, unless you are trying to stir the pot or show us the face of the enemy, I find it difficult to understand your apparent enamor with these fellows.

        • People can espouse whatever path forward they wish. If there is a cause more doomed from the onset than Rightful Liberty in FUSA 2015, I would expect an 11th-century Catholic monarchy would be it. On the other hand, if the choice were between the S’Africa West/North American Caliphate currently on track or a benign Christian monarchy a la the Austro-Hugarian empire, I know which one I would choose.



          If those theses are the case (and such is my operating hypothesis), I am going to keep inviting thoughtful different-thinkers to post here. All readers are free to emote girlishly about the message and the messengers, for that too is part of a free society (even if such exists only as a comment section on some stupid blog).


            I have known this for some time now. There are just too many who are dependent on their taxpayer funded lifestyles and would not be able to make ends meet without said continuation. Unless these ‘messengers” are earning their living without ANY, and I MEAN ANY theft of my tax dollars – which I seriously doubt, some- not many of us have every right to be disgusted with the high n mighty attitude they espouse. So far, I have yet to hear anything other than that mantra. The fact is, the few who actually do not steal their neighbors wealth to support their existence are the extreme minority and their back is at the point of breaking, thanks to those types. I’m sure they honestly believe they deserve to be supported, after all, they wrote the book…… OTOH, Men like Mosby and Max do a genuine service to the community and they are admired and looked up too. Just my 02 cents worth of the 10k I’m relieved of each year thru the threat of .gov force- and I don’t even work. Fuck that shit.

          • “I am going to keep inviting thoughtful different-thinkers to post here.”

            Well, of course you are. Your shop, your choice.

            And the rest of us will probably continue to “emote girlishly,” or call ’em as we see ’em. Isn’t that the point?

          • CA, your capitalized premises were excellent IMO. Anyone who rejects either one may be dismissed out of hand for failure to identify obvious reality.

            It’s the conclusion(s) that everyone wants to ignore, and mostly out of fear. Doesn’t matter, gotta get over it anyway. It’s not tough logic and logic always holds.

            Typically, the tougher the question, the simpler the answer. Everyone’s looking the wrong way–out instead of in–and ain’t nuthin’ ever gonna change until that does. There’s all the logic AND all the evidence in support, but people will go to the ends of the earth–hell, of their own lives–not to see it.

            “It’s what he’s doing! It’s what they’re doing!” A guy could die from the monotony alone, but that won’t be what kills us if it doesn’t change. Surely you see the irony…some of the toughest guys around, afraid to stand forth and admit that their own lives are worth it. Clearly they believe it, but haven’t the courage to stand up and say it in front of others. Like I say, ironic.

        • outlawpatriot

          What oughtsix said. He beat me to it. And I think it fairly obvious. The comments in general run against these guys.

          • The comment popularity/cult of personality shop is in the next state to the West. 🙂

            You ok with “Keep it local. Keep it sane. Keep it military. Keep it disciplined.”?

            • outlawpatriot

              Thinking of having a sign with that very thing posted in the compound area. No doubt it will be displayed prominently in the TOC once it’s completed. 🙂

    • If you were pickin’ we wouldn’t be getting anything except something that sounded like an Outlaw Patriot echo chamber, not the info that appears hear. BTW, be careful OP, don’t let Max find out you’re doing that, Max doesn’t like it, not one bit LOL.

      • outlawpatriot

        Well, not exactly the same. I utilize an approach more like Dan Morgan. I’m dealing with militia, citizen soldiers. Generally the older guys. Not 19 year olds with full physical capabilities. The trick is to get the max from what you got. Not demand something you ain’t never gonna get.

        Remember, at Cowpens Tarlton got pissed because lowly citizen soldiers we’re picking off officers and sergeants from 150 yards away while he was setting up to engage Morgan’s forces. He sent a cavalry charge against the Georgia and South Carolina militia front line in an attempt to break them up. Those boys stood their ground and unsaddled 15 of the cavalrymen during the charge forcing them to retreat.

        It is extremely important to face reality and work to incorporate as much as is espoused across the realm. However, at the end of the day, we’re gonna have to go to war with what we have.

        So, philosophically and training techniques wise, I am not the same.

        • Hence the utility of sharing your reality-based training POV, bro.

          • outlawpatriot

            Kudos. If that’s what you’re doin’ then you deserve a ribbon or somethin’.

            Now, all you gotta do is separate yourself from the ilk represented by Bugs and Bobbin’ and I’ll revoke the your Daffy moniker. 🙂

            I won’t even ask you to make nice with Mosby and Max. 🙂

            • “Now, all you gotta do is separate yourself from the ilk represented by Bugs and Bobbin’ and I’ll revoke the your Daffy moniker. :-)”
              Why, I’m not revoking your “Madd” one. LOL

            • “If that’s what you’re doin’ then you deserve a ribbon or somethin’.”
              BTW OP, Unlike some, I don’t need or desire recognition for it, I just need people to stay out of my way while I’m doing it. I don’t have time for their BS, time is too short.

          • outlawpatriot

            It’s really all basics. I have no experience to justify myself as able to offer something new and improved. Being a little bit of a military historian, I’m just lookin’ for real fights that fit scenarios I think could happen and try to plan accordingly utilizing the people and stuff I have on hand.

            For instance, we run a .50 cal class. Herman is 250lbs plus and not gonna be a hard core ranger. He really digs the gun and shows ability with it. So with that in mind I know we’re gonna build a bunker to overwatch a certain place. Herman doesn’t have to ruck, break contact, or even do PT. All he’s gotta do is man that bunker with the fifty and kill anything he sees when the need arises.

            That’s kinda the approach. Very much Daniel Morgan. I try to stand on the shoulders of giants is all. It’s all I got.

        • Just so you know, my “Bushbastard” course is designed to set the tab recipients up to teach others what they’ve learned in the class. The third (and last) class is a test to measure retention of the knowledge they’ve been given, and after earning the “Bushbastard” tab, they can teach the first two classes to their people, then are sent to me for testing and awarding of the tab if they pass. It’s not about money for me (obviously, or they’d have to take all three classes, not just the last/test, from me), it’s about passing the skills and knowledge on because time is short.

      • “If you were pickin’ we wouldn’t be getting anything except something that sounded like an Outlaw Patriot echo chamber…”

        Lol. I call it the Mah Jong Club approach. He’ll decide who’s in and who’s out. That’s alright actually, just as it is with racists or supremecists or even communists…all that matters is that they earn it on their own and don’t try to loot it from others. “Reality is the final arbiter.”

  39. Cassandra (of Troy)

    Mike Bishop/1Oct15@18:22,

    Indeed. If nothing else, one can learn about the thinking processes of what may be the opposition & thereby how said opposition will operate which itself is valuable intel.