More On ‘The Flight 93 Election’


A lengthy rebuttal/refutation of his critics by the author.

And for the TINVOWOOT crowd (to which I belong), consider deeply the following:

With nothing approaching a defined, agreed-upon end state, there is no successful fighting our way out of the problems either.

Try the following thought experiment:

By Divine intervention, all of the collectivists currently in power at the local/state/Federal level disappear.

What are left are the masses, and the not-currently-in-power politicals across the spectrum.

Commence play.

Judging from the discussions around this place over the years, I am not sure that once things moved beyond the “defending my neighborhood” tactical level, the so-called “freedom movement” could restrain itself from going internecine immediately – anarchist versus Constitutionalist, Christian versus atheist, and so forth.

Team Anti-Freedom at least has its goal of establishing authoritarian rule as broadly as a warlord can control implicit in its name.

But Team Freedom?

Not so much.

This lack of defined end state is a massive strategic problem, and it is not going away.

Discuss – rationally – below.

55 responses to “More On ‘The Flight 93 Election’

  1. This page cannot be accessed. Contact your provider.

  2. So simple.

    Lockean Negative Liberty.


    • Who’s signing up, both pro and con?

      • Might I suggest, any interested parties RTWT:

        Brew some coffee, and cozy up by the fire kiddies; it’s lengthy.

      • #1-The idea of large nation states are an unmitigated disaster.
        #2-Accept the above truth first.
        #3-Meanwhile, build your tribe, you have to start someplace, it is a time proven viable component of tradition and traditional cultures everywhere. Besides, we really have nothing to loose, and much to gain.
        #4- From Kin/Tribe, build a precinct system of local local local.
        #5- Steel ourselves, harden resolve, because to get anywhere with the above beginning steps, we will have to defend it with blood and guts.
        #6-If above doesn’t work, you did everything you could, better to die trying than to submit to the same repeated tyranny and insanity over and over. The template of nation states must be broken first regardless of anything else if there is to be anything else to begin with.
        #7-Be ruthless and merciless regarding #6, there will be no other options.
        #8-It will be harder to do than most of us can imagine. But how is that any different than what lead up to the first attempt from the late 1600’s to prior to signing the administrative tyranny of the united states formerly known as The USC?
        #9-The number 1 priority among all the above: Change your thinking. None of the above, or below, is possible otherwise. It is an absolute rule. There are no excuses or rationalizing, no but’s, or keeping to the ways that got us in this mess to begin with.
        #10-Work tirelessly to win hearts and minds, then work more. If each of us win one heart, one mind, we force multiply by a factor of exponential the possibility of winning time and territory to win in the long run. And it is a long game, make no mistake.
        #11- Join the honorable resistance. Set the example by living what you wish for to distill in others, what is in your heart and mind. Those with the ability to grok the essence of total freedom will grok it too. This is a form of power which will become the most powerful weapon ever devised. It builds an army of allies. It creates an indomitability through a plurality and in parallel creates a cascade preference.
        12-A revolution, regardless of it’s type, requires territory, physical, that can be held. It also requires human terrain, the two are inextricably intertwined. Both are, as culture, both on top, and upstream of everything else, they are the first things, as vital as water and air. Land provides food, resources, space to create community, a physical buffer, it provides legitimacy to cause, area to develop defenses.
        #13-Council and precinct systems based on home sovereignty. This is the next level. Small sovereign states are humanly practical, they are directly connected and answerable, accountable to the dirt people, because they are only able to function legitimately with the blessing and will of the local dirt people. There can never be one seat of authority, nothing can be centralized, there can be no administrative entity above local. The buck stops at local. It is in simplest terms the upside down pyramid of sovereignty.
        #14-There can be no written laws. The only law is there are no laws. Everyone is responsible for their actions in absolute terms. It is up to those involved in the life and culture to determine for themselves, in the context of time, place and morals to decide for themselves what if any action is required and to be acted upon. There can be no governing singular authority, only family, tribe, community together can police their lives. In this way everyone shares equally in responsibility.
        #15-All men, from birth, are born militia, till they die. If one is born into liberty, is there any question all must protect it and defend it.
        #16-None of this is easy, but it must be undertaken, or there will not be freedom and liberty to live in, only the idea of it. There is no middle ground or free ride on this.
        #17-No matter what in all of the above, it all begins, is sustained, and ends, with each of us. There are no set rules, there are no standards to go by to guide us, it must come from each of us. There is no one else who can do this. No one is coming to save you but you. This is the conundrum, the double edged sword of true rightful primal freedom and liberty. It is the gestalt we must hurdle. That liberty is dangerous. You get to do whatever you want, but your responsible, ultimately and totally for everything you do. And that is the beauty of it. The paradigm, the sea change in thinking that has to take place before it can happen. Because if you do screw up, your going to pay for it. The other side of the coin is it is possible, it does work, because liberty has no limits on what a man can do, can accomplish, within the only guideline of not hurting those around him through his actions. That is the only limiting factor, and when you make it work, everyone benefits, and everyone increases everyones prosperity and happiness.

        • “The only law is there are no laws.”

          The satanic bible (there is such a thing) contains but a single commandment. It is: “do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.”

          I see your good intentions. You need them. There is however an inherent problem with this position. People (you and me) are NO good.

          True, as a saved Christian I am no longer under the Law.

          Romans 6:14-15… “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”

          Simply because I am not under the law (the intent of which was to perfectly condemn a man, proving to him that he is a sinner before God – Rom 3:20) does not mean I get to do whatever I want, no matter my “good” human intentions. Tyrants can have “good intentions”. As a matter of fact, these are the worst type of tyrant… those who believe they act “in your best interest”.

          It is Christ in me (and Christ alone) which compels, allows and enables me to do as little or as much good as I actually hope to do in this world. It is the knowledge of who I actually am and what Christ has actually done that transforms my good intentions into actual good in the world… not supernaturally, but because I stop thinking of me and start thinking of Him.

          2 Cor 5:14-15… “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that He died for all, that they which live should not live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.”

          I, by myself, am not capable of good. Neither are you. Neither is the leader(s) that will eventually rise from the fall of the “empire”. People, without the knowledge that they inherently SUCK, cannot possibly “do” actual good. Their actions are inherently misplaced and misdirected, ultimately back toward “self”. If you think you are good, you have missed the most important lesson a human must learn in order to live and perhaps one day lead with any semblance of humility and effectiveness.

          I say again (and again and again…) this begins, proceeds and ends with Christ; or we are doomed to failure.

          Got Christ? (1 Cor 15:1-4)

          You write… “There are no set rules, there are no standards to go by to guide us, it must come from each of us.”

          No and no. “It” must come from outside of us. It must come from the final authority of Him who created us. It is (we are) HIS creation. We play by HIS rules. Understand or die. It is your choice. God does not want you to die. He gave Himself for you to prevent it.

          Such an epic failure is man. A cursory glance makes the matter clear. Bible study proves it beyond any doubt. He does not understand from Whom, what and where he came, nor why he is even here. “Do what THOU wilt shall be the whole of the law.” Indeed…

        • @mtnforge September 14, 2016 19:18:

          Well said and excellent. This is what should be going viral, but it won’t, because that would require, you know, thinking – as opposed to Pavlovian response to propaganda fairy tales (“Mom? This is Mark Bingham . . . You believe me, don’t you?”).

        • No laws? Who enforces contracts? Duels or vigilantes squads? No laws? Then shared values, beliefs, and taboos which decide the above question and other conflicts. And rule by such things in an Iron Vise. The Law frees up from such things – and the Chiefs who end up adjudicating them.

          Jared Diamond (and others) divide human societies in bands, tribes, chiefdoms, and states. Since you seem to be rejecting the state and its laws, we drop down to Chiefdoms – and their rule. It’s not an exact correlation: some Chiefdoms have or had a strong system of oral law, such as the Celts and the Gypsies.

          If you want ever human encounter to be free from all precedent and just subject to how the parties feel, that is the most terrifying condition of all. That’s band level of very inferior peoples.

  3. Where there is no system, people will create one.

    After the fall of large Imperial powers there historically has been a remnant of that power still in place although in a much reduced geographical area.
    Everyone outside of that old Empire went their own way and usually a new leadership was put into power.
    Sometimes better sometimes worse.
    While on the map the borders of those lands my touch the reality is that usually there is a period of consolidation and the power of the rulers is concentrated in the most populated areas. Those who live in the edges are generally on their own. Sometimes thats good and sometimes its not.

    I would suggest that given the specific situation presented that within a very short time many replacement leadership structures would arise and there would be conflict for all manner of reasons. It will eventually settle out with the boundaries of the new political entities solidified on the map. Most likely accompanied by shifts in populations as conflict kills people off or forces them to relocate.
    Old scores will get settled and new enemies will be made.
    Thus churns the millstone of history.

  4. There is no leader. Everyman thinks he will be John Matherson or Mark Turner.

    • Fuckin printer repairmen, all of ’em. My single hope, is to return to a constitutionally biased representative government, nothing more, nothing less. For EVERYBODY.

  5. “This lack of defined end state is a massive strategic problem, and it is not going away.”
    My experience says, ‘do you have to have one?’ Ask the average American their involvement with govt. and its usually — Can I find a way around them? A good deal of our problems today revolve around individuals and how they perceive their relationships in public functions. “There ought to be a law…” is probably the most dangerous words uttered besting “I am from the govt….” by a country mile. E Plurbis Unum cannot exist so long as a fair percentage act like SJWs.

    “… Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. … ” — John Adams to Mass. Militia.

  6. Member of the League of Shadows.

    There’s a reason I’m a monarchist.

    Several people form a family, headed by the father or grandfather.
    Several families form a Clan, headed by the oldest or wisest of the grandfathers.
    Several clans form a tribe, headed by the chief
    Several tribes form a kingdom, headed by a king.

    The same structure, scaled up and down as the situation needs. The king’s children are the people, a father’s kingdom is his land.

    Without a firm leader, of, but above, the people, to settle disputes in an arbitrary and final matter, we’re not going to get along.

    I’ve been amused for a while that all these people with “Molon labe” stickers (words said by a king), who act like they’re hard-ass vikings on facebook (vikings had chiefs and kings), refuse to accept any sort of hierarchy if they’re not at the top.

    Either way, it doesn’t matter much. Collectivists organize, that’s why we call them collectivists. Individualists stay alone, hence their name. All these isolated preppers are drone bait anyways.

    Folks need to either organize, or get ready to die, because there’s not a third option.; That means taking orders, including orders to buy time and soak up bullets so that another group can exploit a distraction and achieve a necessary objective.

    And this whole “Freedom and democracy” thing?

    I’m not fighting a war against the commies just to give their kids and the durkas a vote in how things get rebuilt. Not only no, but hell no.

    • MichiganderJim

      “Individualists stay alone”

      Oh, bullshit. It’s 2016 and this crapola is STILL being espoused? The Founders were Individualists but they didn’t stay alone, did they? Many businessmen are strong Individualists, and egoists to boot…but they don’t EVER operate alone, do they? Can’t run a business without a customer.

      Don’t pass off lies, especially ones as important as this. Please. INDIVIDUALISM DOES NOT MEAN ALONE. You can be responsible for you and I can be responsible for me, and we don’t have to be separated…well, unless one of us is an asshole.

      CA, these days there’s a ton of research and understanding about chaos, spontaneous order, system emergence and so on. Besides the common sensical idea that decent rational men don’t need a particularly devised societal end-state to live their lives decently and rationally, there’s also a boatload of more technical research on the point. It’s all over my head, so I’ve got no pointers…simple logic and common sense are sufficient for me.

      • I am not sure how widely distributed the info re spontaneous order is among the American populace.

        They have been taught from an early age that there must be a boss for their lives and that they are not that boss.

        • MichiganderJim

          Sure. Lucky break it doesn’t depend on them.

        • It’s not just Americans. It is historical in every culture. Generation, after generation. You found it in pre-colonial America. You found it when the European set foot on this continent. The loners were/are outliers, and rare, and ever rarer, is one who lived a long life.

          Put 20 men and 20 women on a deserted island, watch what happens.

          You can not escape the nature of mankind. You can only war against it. Because it is always at war with you.

          • MichiganderJim

            Oh, here we go…the evil nature of man. But not you, right? It’s a 5,000 year-old snooker. Get over it and move on already.

            So who did you wage war against today?

        • It’s upbringing.

          My grandparents and parents owned businesses.
          Myself and my siblings all own or owned businesses.
          Now most of my nieces and nephews are self-employed.

          You’ll never get rich working for someone else….

      • Yes, out of chaos, a new order, a new Hierarchy arises – the Strong Man and His Men. You will be praying for Law to arise to reign them in. And the good ones feel their own lack and seek vindication from something higher – the Priests. As Augustine said, Countries without this higher principle are just bands of brigands, however successful and powerful they may be.

  7. dusty bottoms

    What’s left are the masses…

    those masses are here now, only the productive ones are held back and the mouthbreathers are supported. The end state doesn’t have to be agreed on, that’s the best part about liberty, local elements do fine taking care of themselves.

    Are we worried about the supported masses taking over? Or a vacuum in power sucking in a ‘same as the old boss’?

    There is a general agreed upon end state for productive people, it’s ‘let me be and we’ll figure it out’, the general agreed upon current state for the dependent masses is ‘keep it comin’. With nothing coming the cesspools might bowl over a bit but the fires will go out, those willing to work will, those not willing will migrate towards easier living.

    When most people are left alone they do alright.

    Or maybe I’ve got it all wrong and oversimplified it, but with the collectivists gone there’s not much to ‘fight’ only limited need to defend the self.

    • Yeah you simplified it. Remember, America was a one time thing: how many other continents populated by stone age people are there to claim and conquer? The American psyche is drenched in this exception – and it simply has no relevance any more.

  8. His first essay made a case for conservatism, yet it failed. His second attempt at elaborating on what he meant will not fall on deaf ears, but rather, plugged ears…(neither his fault).

    The elite “conservatives” have no desire to stand up for a so-called moral principle as defined by conservatism or similar. They have given up on morality altogether, thrown in the towel and are content with going along to get along, provided their bennies continue to come in. (Traitors all, come to mind).

    The author is absolutely correct in all points provided, in both essays. But in the end, no one is listening, nor does anyone care to listen anymore.

    We are witnessing the “If you can’t beat them, join them” campaign of a no-balls society…and many who’ve chosen this philosophy is truly not proud of giving up on their core principles to a more aggressive opponent…but they are sure learning how to live with their cowardice quite well. Pathetic.

  9. As in the way that no battle plan survives the first contact intact, no plans made now, in relative peacetime, will survive the spirited debates sure to come if Team Freedom would prevail. Surely, you’d have some IDEA of what you wanted for the extended and now, altered, future. There are so many variables about what things will actually be like at THAT time, that concise and hard plans made now,will in all probability, be unrealistic. Look at it this way. We’re planning now, for the way people and things and situations, look now, and the way we foresee them to be. But our plan doesn’t take into account the actual reality of what will be! We cannot accurately figure out the future. So instead, we must have a set of moral imperatives, a clear understanding of human nature, and the ability to adjust and coordinate changing and always changing situations and conditions we encounter. We all want freedom, and to be left alone to chart our own courses. The erection of the things that must be present to both initiate and continue that expression will involve both money, and the use of force. In all of human existence, no nation or tribe or state has ever been able to continue it’s own life without them. Perhaps a better definition of Freedom is what we need. After all the hard and dangerous work of forging a consensus, fighting off all the outside and inside enemies, taking care of all the food, clothing, and shelter problems, medical, dental, transportation, roads and bridges, buildings, and how it’s all going to get paid for difficulties, what is freedom going to mean? No matter how you slice it, most of our life is going to be occupied with work, real work, just to live. I guess freedom would be the ability to do that work, and live, and not be concerned that the govt. or system you’ve in place would in any significant way interfere with that life and work. And your life and work must have a sound moral basis.

    • MichiganderJim

      “I guess freedom would be the ability to do that work, and live, and not be concerned that the govt. or system you’ve in place would in any significant way interfere with that life and work.”

      Bingo! That’s all the Founders were seeking, after all. Okay, so they didn’t think outside the box quite enough. Not sure what our excuse is.

      “And your life and work must have a sound moral basis.”

      Bingo again. That’s why I think it would help–nay, that it’s necessary–to understand that the good is nothing else. We were snookered, every last one of us. Emotionally it can feel like rape, but there’s still no sensible option but to get the hell up and move on.

  10. The Usual Suspect

    Who gives 2 fucks about what they think ?
    I know what you meant, so do others,
    as for those hypocrites , piss upon them.
    from a great height.

  11. “Only fool libertarians seek the maximized individualism of Ayn Rand.”

    Only fool conservatives so vacuously misconstrue Rand. Understandable, I suppose, since regardless of what she may have gotten wrong about the nature of the State, she certainly had conservatives
    nailed up and bleeding from all extremities.

    • +1 for Rand. As a youngster portable seismographer, I used to be told on the radio to find an LZ and await my ride. The book in my buttpack, broke out on the LZ and waiting for my ride, was “The Virtue of Selfishness.”

  12. Fuck. The. Gubbermint.

    FUCK. THE. poLICE.

  13. Eminencefrontman

    Just remember, some revolutions go backwards.

  14. I’m first concerned about my family and my group surviving the initial event, whatever that event happens to be. Once that’s done, we will be trying to survive on our preps and abilities and those of us physically able in any way will stand to fight. My hope is that God will ensure that the enemy is clearly the enemy. Whatever new system is designed for the masses, I expect that it will be designed far away my rural town of less than 500 people.

  15. “Some also complained about the aptness of the analogy: the plane crashed! Well, yes, and this one might too. Then again, it might not. It depends in part on what action the electorate chooses to take. The passengers of Flight 93 roused themselves. They succeeded insofar as that plane did not hit its intended target. The temptation not to rouse oneself in a time of great peril is always strong. In another respect, the analogy is even more apt. All of the passengers on Flight 93—and all of the victims at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon—died owing in part to a disastrously broken immigration system that didn’t then and still doesn’t serve the interests of the American people. Which also happens to be the core issue at stake in this election.”

    Some think the official narrative was complete shite. Complete shite, start to finish. My favorite part is the missing fcking plane but by all means carry on and “let’s roll”!

    Stay positive and keep prepping. Learn, do. I forage and am learning to forage (because I like eating woodland food? no dumbass because it’s an important skill). It takes time to learn what’s what in the woods n fields and you don’t have much of that time thing. Oh and combine things like deer scouting (you are fing hunting aren’t you?) with learning your terrain and edibles. Now git.

  16. “By Divine intervention, all of the collectivists currently in power at the local/state/Federal level disappear.

    What are left are the masses, and the not-currently-in-power politicals across the spectrum.

    Commence play.”

    Men have free will. Men are evil. No matter what “good” comes from the ensuing “festivities” (if any) men, without Christ, will revert back to what brought us here in the first place. IT IS OUR NATURE.

    It all begins, runs its course, and ends with Christ. Or, it doesn’t.

    Three times in Romans chapter one does God tell us He “gave us up” to our own evil devices. Find them in verses 18-32 (KJB). That’s ALL mankind He’s talking about, each and every one of us. The first half of Romans chapter three does God continue to describe in gross detail how utterly reprobate the human race is.

    The second half of the same chapter tells us what God did about it. He made HIS OWN righteousness (because we have NONE in and of ourselves) available TO US by way of the death, burial and resurrection of Himself in the form of Christ.

    Rom 3:26… “To declare, I say, at this time HIS righteousness: that HE might be just, AND the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”

    If mankind fails to grasp this most basic fact, mankind is doomed. Mankind has failed to grasp this most basic fact.

    Commence study.

    • You must be reading a different KJV than mine. Mine says ‘He gave THEM up.’ And the vs 18-32 talk of ‘they’ and ‘them’ not ‘us.’
      Just saying.

      • Good catch SNK. I don’t usually paraphrase and this time I did. We are reading the same Book.

        When you correctly point out that God via Paul says “them” He is referring to all mankind in general. When I used the word “us” I was including myself in the situation.

        Rom 1:24… “Wherefore God also gave THEM up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:”

        Rom 1:26… “For this cause God gave THEM up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:”

        Rom 1:28… “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave THEM over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;”

        Thank you for keeping me honest. Never believe a word any pastor, preacher or priest says without reading and studying for yourself always. Believe the words on the pages alone.

        grace and peace…

  17. If the shit really does hit the fan….. I would estimate the casualties to be near 90% very large swaths of this great continent will be depopulated of the good and bad.
    the survivors will have to hash out their form of government on their own, and that will very greatly from settlement to settlement.

  18. The Roman empire did not dissolve into utter anarchy, in any place or time after its fall.

    Neither will ours.

    How far one’s area falls depends largely on what sort of people you start with (Detroit,NYFC, etc. – you’re f***ed). Secondly it depends on how resilient the systems in the area are, how self-sufficient it is capable of being, and how sensible the new PTB are, or can become in short order.

    Got infrastructure?
    Got shadow governance?
    Got bullpen?

    If not, you still don’t have enough ammo.

    What good is it to exchange one tyrant 3000 miles away, for 3000 tyrants one mile away?

  19. Alfred E. Neuman

    Reblogged this on ETC., ETC., & ETC..

  20. never mind the “end State”. First liquidate the urban/suburban collectivists/entitlement groups – Jews, Blacks, Mestizos, White Cosmics, sodomites, feminists. After that matters will sort themselves out into a rural, Natural Order: small, feudal domains run by alpha males. In time these domains will agglomorate into a a larger sovereignty defined by a Magna Carta. And so forth.

  21. By Divine intervention, all of the collectivists currently in power at the local/state/Federal level disappear.

    You mean including all the voters who supported them, voters who, now that they have a free opportunity to be anarchists, will instead prove they are collectivists by voting for a strongman to rule other people. You also mean all the smaller competing governments, such as inner city gangs, have also vanished.

    This scenario is too easy, as only anarchists remain. You’ve wished the problem of collectivist human nature out of existence.

    If instead you mean only that the present officeholders have been replaced, then that’s exactly the starting place after you vote your way out of it.

    Any team that will make aggressive imperial war of conquest is not a team working for freedom. All the statist teams that believe in “government” will war for colonization. Anarchist teams will not.

    No war band larger than an inner city gang is self-funding. Drug gangs are not self-funding, because their ridiculous profit margin only exists because another government has instituted price controls. Any war bands that want to be larger will first have to grow by conquering and farming tax slaves for taxes. That takes time.

    Beliefs about the presence or absence of extraterrestrial aliens in the sky seem off topic. These persons will have sympathies for and possibly give aid and comfort to one of the pro/anti ruler sides.

  22. “Over the years …” you say, CA. This whole party was started with the smells of cheap surplus 7.62 x 51 ball in our nostrils as we whiffed it on various ranges, and as the big bad divorce occurred in ’07.

    The whiff is still a good memory. People can shape their neighborhood worlds, based on that smell.

      • I do appreciate the memories of those times. Many thanks from me as you made the transition from cabinboy status for The Leader, to running the Drudge-for-Freefor report, for the benefit of all who care to look.

        But that smell … those who remember it in a non-war environment, who recognize the snap of a bullet passing overhead, and who have retained fitness and developed new skills, should not be counted out as events head North. The Other Folks who read this site, should take note. Rattlesnakes being nice, etc.

        • Agree all.

          I don’t count anyone in that area out of anything.

          Plus, it is sufficiently culturally intact to stand on its own.

          • As the former ass’t county attorney used to say about neighborhoods in his jurisdiction such as mine: “people out in __-istan generally solve their own problems, and I prosecute the winner of the fight.”

            Seriously, we don’t see coppers up here routinely. Pretty rare, and then it’s just a driveby to show the flag or to orient a newbie as to the AO where county LE services are not desired much by the salary payers.

            Most people will continue to live in worse places. I hear that life on de Nile is nice.

    • JustAroundTheBend

      What are you referring to here. I was not subscribed to this blog when ever that was if that was in 2007. Maybe reading the archives might help me.