The Riotgun And The Bayonet
Surviving The Mob
Play for keeps.
The riots will not subside until January, at the least.
Shot gun is a nice idea.
I do not envision any replay of Verdun or the Somme.
Less than lethal rounds also a good idea.
Bird shot to be bounced off the ground into a mass of thugs–good idea.
EBR’s if available–nice idea.
Fuck a .357 if the only thing available–a good idea.
“Fuck a .357 if the only thing available”
I suppose anything’s a dildo if you’re brave enough, but there’s just no scenario where that wouldn’t really hurt.
Re: Shotgun loadout
1st 2 rounds in the mag – Brenneke or BRI/type slugs
Next – 3 rounds 2.75″ #1 Mag Buck
Next – 1 round #2 or #4 copper or nickel plated turkey shot
Last in mag & chamber – 1 round each rubber 00 Buck
Adjust the above loads to mag capacity/preference but keep the rubber rounds for the first 2 shots as they’re ‘bait’ that’ll draw targets for the remaining rounds to chew up. Bouncing the rubber buckshot/turkeyshot into the front line of a mob so it hits their legs will first cause lots of theatrics but will quickly be seen as non-fatal & a sign that the shooter’s not serious making the mobbies bold & careless & food for the buck & slugs going between the navel & heart or bounced into the herd.
THAT is where the REAL carnage will occur w/ blood/bone chips/internal organ juice/body parts from the 1st/2nd lines spraying into the ones behind/to the sides, pain & fear shrieks, people slipping on the effluent of the dead/dying/wounded & themselves screaming, chaoticus magnificens! And the shotty just keeps on keepin’ on.
The occasional flashbang, thunderboomer, flechette, maybe even a flare round or 3 in the mix would be a nice touch (especially the latter if some rubbernecker had tossed some flammable substances into/onto the assembly) & increase the consternation of the given to & the opportunities for mirth for the giver.
Code of the bayonet fighter: Kill or be killed!
Battle cry of the bayonet fighter: KILL!!!!
Don’t mount one just or looks or intimidation. Learn and practice the techniques and make the moral determinations well ahead of time… just like a gun, only messier. Up close and personal. Not for the faint of heart, lads and lasses.
Dodge makes some arguments for a shotgun with a bayonet. Most anyone can justify their beliefs. Doesn’t make them correct. In Dodge’s essay I’d like to think he presents an idea, a thought.
Myself, I have a Mossberg 590a1. It has never seen a mounted bayonet. Have had it for longer than I like to think. I quit training with it years ago.
1. It is long, cumbersome (20″).
2. It is heavy.
3. It is pump action. Slow to manipulate.
4. It has limited magazine capacity. 1 + 8 in 2.75″ shells.
5. It is slow to reload.
6. It is difficult to reload.
7. It kicks like the proverbial mule.
8. In turn, the recoil makes target re-acquisition difficult.
9. It is innacurate.
10. It requires more training and practice with emphasis on reloading.
The U.S. Army ceased bayonet training in July of 2010.
The US Marine Corps issues (M16a2 is their “go to” wpn) Benelli shotguns on a limited, as needed basis. Guess what ? They have no bayonet lugs on them !
If you think Mr. Dodge has presented you a viable, practical argument for you to gun up with a Mossberg 590a1, go for it. The 590a1 is the only commercially available shotgun with a bayonet lug on it. It is a good, well-built weapon. You can get one for about $500. But, if you take Mr. Dodge’s screed as necessity….I believe you’ll be taking the advise of a carnival barker.
To each their own.
Let your conscience, pocketbook and limited training time be your guide.
But, whatever you do….
Never give up your guns.
III, actually a SG IS a “best choice”, and Dodges model of tool selection is significant, my above article wasn’t a negative towards Dodge, but a situational awareness situation.
For the past 40 years I’ve had great sucess with the fighting shotgun. While I don’t disagree with your observations, I would share that each of those perceived issues is easily overcome, in fact a bit of weight on the SG, is desirable.
Not sure of your observation of the m4, however from my position, the m4 would not be my chosen tool in the riot scene. Personal choice, if your an m4 guy, good on you.
The one add on I’d like to suggest is a device called a ” duck bill” a device that attaches to the end of a SG barrel, and squeezes the rounds down and spreads them out in a very wide pattern, for close in work or jungle warfare.
I’ve got two sg’s with duckbills one is a Ithica 37 like the “nam” SEALS used, and an 870. The down side to the duckbill is absolutely no slugs thru the gun.
A company down in Texas is commercially making the devices for specific shotguns.
Interesting concept, thanks for the post. Will look into that.
Can you send a link or name of that vendor? Thanks.
The company asking the Duck Bills is named Paradigm, out of Texas. They have a couple you tubes out for review. I first had one in 1983, after an associate, and old room mate turned me onto the duckbill. He had serious ties to navy special warfare, back then, and admired a old frog named ” Patchs Watson” . After all those years, and after reviewing the mentioned company Patchs is featured on their site. Note I did not know Patchs.
My uncle manufactured my first one for a shorty 870, I used for door work way back then. I have no idea of how to,do links. I’m a computer Tard, and like it that way.
Hope this helps.
So while fighting in massive panic mode, you’re going to remember to (a) not load slugs, or (b), unscrew duckbill ?
Idiotic idea in my mind, but hey, I’ve been called one before this.
I cannot overemphasize KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), the simpler your equipt, the easier it will be to remember and function properly while your brain is in combat overload. Hanging every doodad and gearqueer piece of equipt you can buy on yourself and weapons is a recipe for disaster.
If you truly want to survive, stop thinking like some teenage airsoft fanatic and learn a lesson from the VC and guerrilla forces. Less is better.
You’ll get no argument from me on your remarks. In my mind you are spot on.
“….stop thinking like some teenage airsoft fanatic….” “Less is better”
As hard as I try I couldn’t state it any better. Kudos.
Note to self, duckbill SG, don’t carry slugs. Problem solved. For what it’s worth, I find the duckbill to be very very effective for my needs. The witness of the pattern at 6 to 12 yards is,fucking amazing.
I’ve got a ton of old clean shotguns. If I’m wanting to,shoot slugs, I’ll pick a different stick. I’ve been working with my old Remington model 11 lately, the one where the barrel recoils for ejecting the spent casing. 18 inches, no duckbill.
A pure pleasure to shoot fast.
One would imagine that if you were keeping it as a truck gun (if the riots are in your hood then you dun messed up or Murphy’s got a hard on for you) you could…only keep shot shells in there and not slugs. This would seem to ameliorate the problem of the ammo. I’m a big fan of a large brush guard and a Powerstroke behind it being a fairly decent riot extrication device, as it only requires a firm grip and lead foot. Hit a deer with my guard and it left a softball size dent where its cranium kissed it and I had to spray it off when I got home.
Living in a grizzly bear infested environment, I’m a big fan of slugs, so I guess I’ll miss out on all the fun of owning a duckbill. 😦
And the grill guard on my Jeep will have to be happy with an occasional deer or elk kill, since I live in a county of 4 persons/sq mi I’m not too worried of any riots anytime soon either.
I made my comments re: shotgun/bayonet only to express why I find it to be a losing proposition. Mr. Dodge writes well. Doing so he makes a good argument for those predisposed to go the shotgun route. But, better men than I have made the decision that bayonets are not the instrument of land warfare they once were. Secondly, the shotgun “attributes” that Dodge promotes are his opinion. If the shotgun was so wonderful I would think it would replace the M16/M4 series of battle rifles. It hasn’t and it won’t.
The bottom line is that if one wants to picture himself as Sergeant Rock with a bandoleer of 12 gauge strung across his chest and a 590 w/bayonet slung across his shoulder….so be it. I wanted to offer a simple rebuttal to Dodge’s Hooah mentality regarding bayonet-equipped shotguns for individual citizen usage. I’m half expecting Mr. Dodge will soon be publishing an article on equipping one’s family with fragmentation grenades. Those can be mighty handy, doncha know ?
Folks should choose whatever firearm they can own that suits their fancy. For me, I have no desire to encumber myself with a shotgun and a bayonet. My ARmalites will do everything I would need them to do and they all have bayonet lugs, if need be.
So, whatever “trips your trigger” (pun intended) just ensure you practice and practice often.
Dan, all valid points. I’m not one to hang a pig sticker on the front of any gun, not my style.
Actually, there are the Chinese-made copies of the vaunted Winchester Trench Broom also to be had w/ bayonet lug, as originally intended. They work just fine, BTW, despite sharp edges and rough finish work, and include the original slam-fire option.
Both they and the Mossberg are fine for close quarters, should it get down to that. Won’t be my first choice, but I have same with an extended (12″) M7 bayonet, and it was handy for the local Rodney King Follies hereabouts, back in the day. Still a fan of 300-500m engagements with an AR whenever possible, but if folks start coming in your windows, a shoulder-fired claymore with pointy thing isn’t a bad second option, and vastly superior to pistols.
Splattering birdshot at legs is a dose of dumbass, and a recipe for a maiming charge afterwards (and there’s always an afterwards), when pellets ricochet unintended into some Dindu Nuffins’ eyes instead.
If circumstances call for deadly force, use buckshot, and put ’em down the first time. Period.
good material in both essays. But even a mob may have a leader or leaders. If possible, spot and drop them first. And in these days of “lights! camera! action!” (((Soros)))-BLM/(((MSM))) confabulations (Ferguson, Baltimore, Charlotte), nailing some of the participant media flacks might also be useful.
The untrained, young macho of today think it is cowardly to run. they don’t understand that when outnumbered, outgunned, and about to be outmaneuvered there is no styma attach to a tactical retreat. He you runs today , lives to fight another day.
I would like to apply to be the loader for those two girls.
January – right. so basically the only “riots” we’ll see will be from scared “patriots” at the ammo counter at Walmart…. Again.
There are a couple of manufacturers who make bayonets that attach to picatinny rails, I believe Glock has them listed in their catalog. Mounting rails on an extended tube is child’s play… I agree with the shotgun as a get out of trouble playtoy… Also remember that if a crowd is deciding to mess with you, the visual of a buckshot mangled head is a psychological deterrent.
I finally understand why they called that magazine “Maxim”. Ba dump bump. Sorry, Hiram.
Caught in a riot, and good choices, don’t resonate. Being in a riot, walking to my vehicle and unleashing an m14 or a shotgun, just dosent sound like a happy ending is upon us.
Unless your one of the rioters and black or ” of color” you sir made a really really bad mistake. Your about to be shot dead. The news will report ” he had a gun” and the people will rest well, knowing that the real shit bag got shot, not those pesky Soros’s agitators.
If your at your ride, get in, drive the fuck off the X. Articles like this, are poorly researched, and fantasy at best. a shotgun at a riot, with a pig sticker on the end, do you really truly believe this will end well.
“Being in a riot, walking to my vehicle and unleashing an m14 or a shotgun, just dosent sound like a happy ending is upon us.” Who said anything about carrying them in your vehicle? That post was written as advice for those defending their home or neighborhood.
I re read what I wrote, wasn’t dogging you, if your the author. truthfully if you live in a place a riots going to break out around your crib, brother, it’s time to move.
Amazing what a beer bottle gas, soap and a burning rag will do to a stick house in very short order.
We each have the ability to select where we live, where we work.
Maybe a Korean storekeeper mask would help?
The weaponry choices sound excellent. But some observations —
* What the he** are you doing anywhere near a crowd of people? First rule of thump is avoid crowds whenever possible.
* Most urban centers are in control of democrats who long since abridged the 2nd Amendment. re: Chicago. Discharge the weapon in those centers and a can of whoop a** will befall you unfortunately.
* If you are in a vehicle your best weapon IS the vehicle. It has an accelerator pedal, use it. If you have to egress the vehicle to acquire your weapon you put yourself at risk. Placing your weapon in a gun rack ala truck is just an invitation to have it stolen long, long before you ever see a riot. Remember killing someone with a gun is a murder rap in most states. Whereas doing same with a vehicle is generally manslaughter unless the DA can show intent.
Seems like some education on how to pick out the leaders in a crowd would be most helpful here. IMHO – the posted articles are dealing more with what to do in a SHTF situation where you’re caught up in a riot you had no advanced notice of – and are just trying to deal with the best way to hand to hand fight your way out of it.
With ANY advance warning at all – (again IMHO) – the best way to “defend” is to stand off at a distance and pick people off one by one. If I remember correctly that’s what happened in some of the protests in Ukraine where snipers were taking people out at random. Find the leaders (they’re always there somewhere) – and take them out. That will help break up the momentum. I believe Bracken has covered this in one his articles.
Figure the nuances all be a moot point pretty soon. Buck or slugs, that will be the important issue.
A 6 shot pump with a cut down short pull stock and a barrel the same length as the tube magazine makes a mighty fine quick handling practical close in weapon. A trigger disconnect Ithaca with a good rapid acquiring sight or accomplished instinctive shooting is a deadly combination. Those 5 shot shell cards with the velcro backing in ammo pouches make for rapid ready reloads. Pouches on one side for slugs, other side for buck. Keep it simple.
“Buck or slugs, that will be the important issue.”
Split the difference – load buck & ball shells.
Equal rights for 12 gauge!
Bring equal rights here to mob control. Every target in range gets an equal right to a lead enema. You can be diverse in your selection of targets with a suitable quantity of belt fed reserve ammo.
My kingdom for belt fed 12 gauge.
Good call, I’m a Ithica guy. I love the bottom ejector, and can card both sides of the receiver, for 6 in the gun, six on each side of the gun. We all got away from the hard plastic/ aluminum shell holders years ago.
The cards are pretty slick, when I’m carring my SG, I have 18 on the gun, ” I like the weight” on the 37 featherweight models. And a ammo mag carrier with 4/5 extra cards.
As the rounds on the receiver are depleted, pull another card, from the mag pouch, and slap it back onto the receiver. The velcro seems to hold up well, under this application.
I might add that being a bottom loader, and ejector, allows double the ammo on the SG, if you so choose.
I’d also like to share this. People are scrambling for m4s right now. I can walk into almost any shop and buy older used shotguns, for 100.00 to 200.00 dollars. All are quality guns, and in great shape. They may not be Remington’s or mossbergs. But Sears western field, etc etc. great throw downs!
I know that I’m going to,cut the barrels generally to 20 inches, or,18 1/2,
It is important to understand how the ATF, or agency will be checking a SG properly. A wooden dowl down the barrel is the only truly accurate measurement, on a closed breech.
Suggesting that if you do your own machine work on the Barrel that you measure measure cut and re measure, just to keep the SG legal. Also remember that the other number required is 26 inches OAL.
A SG can have a barrel 18, but must be 26 OAL, to be legal. Same with a rifle, not to be confused with a rifle calibered, pistol like the short m4 and kinko’s.
“Slick” is a great term for the cards, really open up a ton more options, and the speed aspects for reloads are hard to beat.
I’m partial to the 37 too. Hard to say why, but it handles a lot different than my 870 and 500. Kicks like a mule though that’s nothing that stops the fast cycling of the 37.
If anybody here ain’t aware of it, lot of older 37’s came with trigger disconnects. I got an old beat up state police pump in a trade at a gun show, was super easy to take apart and clean it up. Gave it a light sand blast, dipped it in Brownells parkerizing solution. Sanded down the stock used some linseed oil and it’s like an old friend. They sell for new something like $1200 on Ithaca’s website, don’t know what street price is. Ithaca sells every part for them. It is an underrated reliable pump made in the old world style.
Can you link pics/sources for these cards?
These are the cheaper cost cards, $7.99:
There are the Hardcore cards, I found them higher quality, but either are a great system. $14.99
The grab loop is a nice feature. I run them in mil surp Alice 30 round AR mag pouches. (If you are needing to save pennies, you can attach alice mag pouches to Molle by using the alice clips, in conjunction with looping the grenade straps through a Molle web on each side, I cut off the grenade pouch, leave the snap straps, the straps are the perfect length. never had one come loose. It is low tech and cheap, but they are mounted firm and do not flop around. I have a shotgun vest dedicated to 12 ga load out. These are the mil surp vests: http://www.armygear.net/ag/store/items/00189_lg.jpg
Here for $12.98 brand new:
Great vests, built like brick shithouses, ask for the version without the zipper, you want the 2 buckle only vest. Ton of Molle real-estate, infinitely adjustable. I have one for every occasion, including digging ginseng. Many pooh pooh these vests, but man I have been running them for 7 years, gone through max’s classes, and bushwhack up and down the WV ridges, no complaints. They run well with a medium Alice ruck sack. My shotgun rig is set up to carry 110 shells using the above Molle vest. With lots of Molle left to update the round count, plus run a knife, canteen, pistola, IFAC and bits like compass and 1st line gear. Their a super bargain for the money and totally universal. Woodland camo to boot.
Those shotshell cards redefined the idea of the combat shotgun. The idea is you swap cards in a kind tactical reload as your tube mag is depleted the moment you get a lull in the action so you always have a full card stuck to the gun. Some guys like Dirk, run two cards, which you can do with the bottom eject/load Ithaca receiver. You can bite down a card between your teeth for an instant ready reload too. Or one in an easy to grab open pocket. The shotshell card concept opens up a lot of ways to create very fast combat reloads. Lots of ways to skin a cat.
Hope that helps.
Oh ya, A mil surp Molle Saw pouch holds exactly 25 rounds of 2 3/4 inch shells. That way you can have reloads for the shell cards, and not have to buy cards for the entire 100 or whatever shells you carry. I take my empty 25 round shell boxes, wrap the outside and inside in gorilla tape, so the box has some ruggedness and a bit of waterproofing, and if you have to dive into your twenty five round reserve pouches to refill your cards, the remaining loose shells don’t make much sound bouncing around when you shoot and scoot as with bare cardboard. The boxes help keep the saw pouch it’s shape, and the box flap helps keep the shells from getting away under the floppy saw pouch cover.
Little things, but they count.
Great stuff. Thanks.
I too have rebuilt numerous shotguns; cut bbl to 19″, sandblast, parkerize, and refinish wood or Duracoat plastic and metal with a flat dark earth. People love what their old beater shotgun looks like in combat mode.
Ya, hear you man, happiness is your trusty old shotgun. They get this patina and character that soothes the savage beast in you.
My grandad gave me a JC Higgins over under 16 ga for my 4th birthday, cut it down to 18 on the barrel and 10 on the stock so I could handle it. Of all my weapons, it’s my go to, because been shooting it so long now it’s second nature. The old lady likes it for the house gun, she is 100lbs soaking wet.
Always wondered why 16’s never where popular, it’s a hotter round than twelve in most loads, all the energy and pretty close in pellet count, and quite a bit lighter weapon.
Why do people downplay bayonets? After Hilligula gets elected, that is all we will have after the initial contact/confrontation/clash. The bayonet was used for psychological effects as well as close combat.
Since so many white boys are too scared to fight and those who will fight don’t know how, the use and knowledge of the bayonet should reap rewards.
Just remember that there is individual combat and on-the-line unit combat and when men are shoulder to shoulder, some wide swinging techniques are not recommended. Also remember to protect your buddy on each of your sides. Just think of it as a spear that used to shoot.
“Since so many white boys are too scared to fight and those who will fight don’t know how, the use and knowledge of the bayonet should reap rewards.”
If they cant fight, or don’t know how, How is a bayonet going to make things better?.. It takes a big set of magentas to fight, and im not talking out at the bike rack after school sort of fight.. But it takes a GIANT set to square off with a blade, against someone with a blade.
Yes, you’re right about that. I was referencing Shinmen Takezo and a video of a white boy with an “All Lives Matter” placard getting accosted and running instead of fighting. (He also got his ass beaten.)
I am alluding to the fact that those whom are too scared to fight be re-educated to fight and those whom don’t know how but are willing be re-educated–by us who know how and those who have done it.
Then a bayonet is effective. I recommend that whites learn to be violent without anger, nor emotion. It has been said that Hollywood portrays blacks as savagely violent and whites as intelligently violent. (Hint, hint.)
Most Millenials don’t trust, nor support gun control laws.
Great, timely post from Gabe Suarez http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/09/the-istanbul-drill.html
yes, that was excellent. Particularly the point about shooting the face-not-center of mass, as a bullet will likely detonate the vest. Shared on twit and Zuckerbook.
OP tempo update:
-Financial Crisis in Motion (DB) /check
-ME party favors being handed out (Syria/Kerry/full retard) /check
-Potential Major Cane over Cuba n turning north Sun night /check
Hoist that fcking Jolly Roger.
Reblogged this on ETC., ETC., & ETC..
Meh. Shotguns. Big, heavy, slow to load, limited ammo capacity and heavy ammo carry weight per round. Bayonet. Yeah, I have one. An M9. And I even remember how to use it. Just don’t have a gun to put it on. My AR has the lug, but it’s a carbine. My 590 doesn’t have one at all. I have it just because it’s a big heavy knife that I can abuse.
I’m looking to off the shotgun. Got a lot of ammo to go with it too. Buck, slug and bird. I’ll throw in the bayonet. Lemme know. 🙂
Lemme look close at the ammo. You really serious? Truthfully, I just wanna off it. 🙂
I should shitcan my 590a1 also. Been thinking about it. Time to get rid of it. Don’t know why I keep it around.
May put it up on Gunbroker. Hmmm….
. A giant glass jar full of Skittles and Cheetos .A giant lethal mousetrap for transgressors of all types.Bait,trap,destroy..
Shotgun flechettes..Rhodesians The shotgun is a multi-use weapon system. Extremely flexible to include incendiary and armor piercing rounds,An essential component of a fire team.
Concerned citizen, the cards are made by different companies, look at ” ESSTAC, and SKDTAC, both market the SG cards.
Basically their a flat card with heavy duty rubber shell holders on a Velcro backed ” card”. You apply the sticky side of the Velcro to the SG surface and attach the card to the Velcro.
I was skeptical after watching the magpul guys running then on their sg’s. I initially purchased 3 and set them up on a 870 for review. I selected the seven round cards, as they fit the receiver better.
After many many boxes of shells and 100s of card change outs. I was sold on the card system. I’ve own a very large stack of these cards, I think they were 15 bucks back then. Anyways to date zero problems, keeping the cards secured to the SG. Or striping the empty card from the SG, and re applying a loaded card back to the SG, from a mag pouch. I am currently using m4 after market carriers.
Hope this helps.
Never heard of ’em before today.
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