A Guest Post From SFC Barry Re Conscription

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Two Questions

by

SFC Steven M Barry USA RET

Question #1:

Who says conscription is slavery?

Question #2:

Since when?

Show all work.

32 responses to “A Guest Post From SFC Barry Re Conscription

  1. I’ll make some pop-corn.😉

  2. Murray Rothbard in “For a New Liberty” in 1973 is the earliest reference I found in a quick search, although Ron Paul has published a few op-eds on that topic including that phrase over the years. (Both pre and post 9/11.

    Certainly the sentiment, if not the phrase, was around in the Civil War as shown by the NYC Draft Riots. And I would bet it was a commonly accepted practice in the ancient Middle East.

    Interestingly the arguments in favor of a draft mirror those given in favor of tax compliance. I find both unpersuasive.

  3. Answer #1: anyone that understands the individual is not state, nor any other person or entity’s property. Answer #2: since the beginning of recorded history. There is no work to show, as anarchic, chaotic freedom is man’s natural state. It’s your burden to show proof you or any other entity has the right to enslave another human being. Answers that contain the phrase ‘for the greater good’ or to ‘protect society’ will be rigorously scoffed at and derided.

  4. The question is, why does Barry even care what us peasants think;) Must be getting lonely up there at the top…Sad That…

  5. In unjust wars of conquest it is most certainly indentured servitude . As such no just sovereign would hold the life of their subjects in such contempt.
    In righteous wars of defense of hearth and home no such device should be needed as the leavy should be filled voluntarily. Though if not fill I should be listed a service in kind and be held in great esteem that you were thought worthy to serve your nation I. Time of need.

  6. Alfred E. Neuman

    Reblogged this on ETC., ETC., & ETC..

  7. SFC, what is conscription? Where someone tells you what to do or what to be? We all make decisions and deal with the aftermath. Conscription is not slavery. We each get to choose. When I bailed on college, I enlisted with the Marines. I could of been conscripted into the Army I reckon. But I could of gone to Canada. I could of simply gone to work on one of my uncles ranches and disappeared. We all get to choose and we all have to face up to what ever the results are. Now I sell my talents to the highest bidder of the internationalist. Who ever pays me the highest price. Conscription I have never heard of. I go where I will. I do what I wish … My mind is free, My body is free and I accept full responsibility of what ever choice I make.
    Til Valhalla. Cheers LP

  8. MichiganderJim

    Are you fucking kidding? Conscription is such an extreme form of slavery that it almost doesn’t qualify and may be a class of evil on its own.

    Who says so? Who cares? How the hell could that matter? Tell ’em to put up a poster at the home—“Things are what they are.”

    Since when? Since when what? Since when did this madness become part of your mind, if it even did? Good question.

    • Surprised this thread didn’t get more of a response. Perhaps the kids have grown tired of baited questions from the resident monarchist.
      Anyway, I vote for Jim’s reply as most succinct and direct. With particular attention to his opening question and his closing question.

  9. FrozenPatriot

    #1 anyone except the Biggest Gang doing the enslaving.

    #2 since they became the Biggest Gang and started enslaving people not in their gang.

    It’s no wonder the merc in the Big Gang only sees things from his own narrow view; the chattel slave traders didn’t see a moral delema in their actions either…

    • For anyone unable / unwilling to comprehend the material neilmdunn linked, a couple rather more immediate questions:
      1) What is fragging?
      2) Under what circumstances does it occur?

  10. Since Webster’s 1828 dictionary, conscription fits the definition of slavery. But of course, certain people think it advantageous not to make too close a connection between the two, just as they prefer not to make too close a connection between taxes and theft (or extortion). If you don’t agree with this, just go ahead and let us know what makes conscription something other than slavery. What characteristic of conscription takes it outside the definition of slavery?

  11. SFC Barry asks questions that upon examination are a lot like those Russian Matryoshka dolls, below the surface it’s more dolls/questions.

    The question of whether conscription is slavery is more interesting to me than who says it is or isn’t.

    The short answer is: it depends.

    Tom Kratman in his 3 part Conscription: History and Realities of Conscripted Militaries, had this to say:

    “There are certain requirements that must be true and must be followed if conscription is to work:
    1. It must be seen as needful by the people.
    2. The conditions of service must be seen as consistent with the need; they can be very harsh conditions, indeed, if the need is seen as great enough.
    3. It must be seen as fair.”

    By work, I take that as being societally legitimate and not slavery. Lacking these requirements conscription is well on it’s way to being slavery, not withstanding the use of weapons and engaging in contracts.

    Worth reading:
    Part 1
    http://www.everyjoe.com/2016/02/22/politics/conscription-history-realities-conscripted-militaries/
    Part 2
    http://www.everyjoe.com/2016/02/29/politics/conscription-not-analogous-enslavement/
    Part 3
    http://www.everyjoe.com/2016/03/07/politics/conscription-part-iii/

    Thanks for the thought experiment, Steve.

    Joe Fahy

    • FrozenPatriot

      Chattel slavery was socially legitimate too. It is a distinction without a difference…

      • Chattel slavery was socially legitimate too. It is a distinction without a difference…

        Yeah, you might be right. It also sums up my life, if I’m honest. And voting as well.

        It’s been awhile since an acquaintance with a JD used that one on me. But he is just a lawyer.

        Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

        Joe

  12. Conscription is Slavery when forced to fight NWO Wars……
    American troops in the Ukraine! NATO in Ukraine? poking the Bear…..

    ‘of course the Russians are being provocative by giving them Ukrainian flags to wave!” (extreme sarc.)
    i’m sticking with Maj.Gen. Smedley Butler, until someone wants to order the assault on DC

  13. SemperFi, 0321

    Good thing I’m filing for a VA disability, that should keep me out of the draft.

    • Depends on what draft you are referring too.
      You are considered valuable to some.
      Remember 10 Nov Marine. Yeah you.
      A legitimate holiday. Cheers, LP

    • Just because you are no longer suitable to be a Corporal in the USMC does not mean you would not be a good trainer at a camp. Uncle will find jobs for you, if he needs your skills. Don’t worry, you’ll get paid, probably with a rank + privilege bump from your last one. That’s why they call them Orders. The POTUS can do it with a stroke of a pen. No one is free when monsters rule.

  14. Those who have to ask… who REALLY have to ask… probably won’t understand the answer.

    But I’ll try anyway.

    As a software developer, every day I deal with a kind of data which has – can possibly have – only 2 possible values, for example:
    0 or 1, “true” or “false”, “yes” or “no”.
    By far, not all data types are like this, which only makes things more complex and more interesting.
    This really helps to develop one’s logical thinking.

    Let me explain.

    A woman can only be pregnant, or not pregnant. There’s no “in-between”. It’s a yes or no situation. Either/or. “Maybe” arises only when there is not enough proof one way or another, but it only indicates the people’s perception and/or knowledge (or lack thereof), yet it says nothing of the said woman’s condition. She is – at any given moment – either pregnant or not pregnant.

    A person can be either free, or not free. There is no “partially free” or “most free”, or “free when allowed a leave of absence”. A partially-free person is not free, period.

    Either a man owns himself, or someone else does.
    The definition of “own”, by Merriam-Webster dictionary: belonging to oneself.
    Belong: to be the property of a person or thing.
    Can it be any more clearer than that?..

    When conscription starts, men (these days, it looks like we will have our wives and daughters drafted, too) no longer belong to themselves: they can no longer do what they want, and they are not free to not do what they don’t want to do.

    Worse yet: true ownership means an ability – a right – to destroy one’s owned property.
    Speaking of conscription, especially in the times of a war: try to tell the officer to go fuck himself and and then try to turn around and leave the battlefield, and see what happens next…
    Soooo… do you still think you own yourself when conscripted?..

    A question for everyone: put slavery and conscription next to each other. Find 10 differences. Let me know.

  15. During the 99.99% of history when hominids lived in hunter/gatherer bands, the males fought when threatened to preserve the band. Without a group’s protection, you were dead anyway. Same in ancient Greece. Later on you fought for your liege lord, or got thrown off the land. The lord fought too. Conscription is an invention of the modern Nation State that wants to fight more wars than it has manpower or money to fight, so it enslaves its citizens to become soldiers, often paying them little or nothing. It is heinous.

  16. Most people would rather drag the hurt out for generations, anything to keep wishing, then face the facts that government doesn’t “work” and they could end government in a month with a mass tax protest.

    Answers: #1 Me, and #2 I finally figured out all “government” was illegitimate in my late 20’s.

  17. I’m a little late to this dick skinning. I think the question was asked of me in a previous thread, but it appears to have already been answered several times over.

    Is conscription not involuntary servitude or forced servitude? In any other conversation, involuntary servitude is called slavery. The conscript is taken from his home and forced to labor. I don’t see a difference.

    Mr. Barry, do you not consider conscription the same as slavery? Why?

  18. Roger Morris

    simple, read the 13th amendment. period.

    ________________________________

  19. I would ask the question,
    Do you feel a sense of Duty to defend a Nation or an ideal?

    If you answer yes then you may not view conscription as slavery.

    • Enslaved for the defense of freedom?

      When was the last time our military defended our shores?

      If you can’t raise a volunteer army to defend a nation, are the people of that nation worth defending?

      I almost forgot this,
      “Don’t argue, don’t engage. You will never reason anyone out of a position they were never reasoned into.” – WRSA Reader

      • Thus the question.
        If the thought or ideal is worth defending then duty should compel you to defend it and there should be no need for conscription.

        If a nation or ideal is so consumed with apathy that no one will stand for it and the need to compel service is is viewed favorably then there is a fundamental problem.

        I suggested that those who feel the duty to stand may also see conscription as a “call to service” and that those who resist that call as being apathetic. It does not cross their mind that anyone would view that call as a type of involuntary servitude.

        I can see the debate from both sides of the fence.
        I assume that Sgt Barry is asking the question because he sees the “patriot community” as lacking duty, honor and commitment. That the community is so filled with people who will not submit to leadership that it is stillborn. I can understand why he sees it that way.
        I dont agree with Barry on his Papists and Monarchist views but the man asks legitimate questions and has legitimate opinions on some of the people in the “movement”
        We only have to scroll up a few entries on the main page to see examples of Major League Fuckwitery in the form of the Georgia Three Percent group being given a full page article in a main stream magazine. These clowns are just a few doors down from me and I should walk over there and try and sort them out but why? I would just assume try and stop winter from happening. Everyone has a part to play. It sucks for them that their part is that of meat shield but that is a them problem.

        • MichiganderJim

          >>>I can see the debate from both sides of the fence.
          I assume that Sgt Barry is asking the question because he sees the “patriot community” as lacking duty, honor and commitment. That the community is so filled with people who will not submit to leadership that it is stillborn. I can understand why he sees it that way.<<<

          That's fine, and he may well be right about that too, but it simply isn't the topic. To speak of the duty another person ought to feel is likewise a valid commentary maybe, but it's got nothing to do with conscription, which is the forcing of another to have a particular duty that the enforcer believes the victim ought to have.

          So while it may not be evil to say, "That guy ought to have a sense of duty and be willing to fight for his country (or anything else)," it's utterly evil to force him to do it against his wishes. That IS the definition of good and evil in any social context.

          Conscription says that your life is not yours to use and dispose as you choose. Because of hierarchy, it's an automatic fail in ANY social context without regard to the imagined good that's to be gotten\. There are not two sides to this debate—there is reality and there are various wishes which may or may not have anything to do with reality. Barry's don't, at least if believes conscription can somehow be rationally justified. The poor guy's trippin', but I'm sympathetic to the tricks age can play on one's mind. Still no excuse.

  20. Having seen a conscript military up close and personal (French army), I would say the term slavery could be used. Most of these young men fought against the system from the moment they got in, in all kinds of ways from trying to find some kind of medical out to desertion. When your forced to do something against your will, yes this could be a form of slavery.
    The sad part is all the fine NCO’s that had to try and get these units… well to look like something that resembles a military unit. Lots of wasted manpower and time.