From Over The Transom

Pete,

Take a look at this: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/04/05/us-army-considers-7-62-interim-battle-rifle/

The 7.62x54R has been around since 1891, longest serving cartridge in Russian forces. Still fielded and found in PKM Belt fed MG’s, SVD Dragunov Sniper Rifles (all variants), VSS (all variants) & old Mosin Nagants.

Jim Schatz did an interesting presentation here on the engagement gap.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2016/armament/18260_Schatz.pdf

Jim was a titan but I disagree with some of his conclusions.

You will now see the SLAVFOR whipsaw back in forth in savage internecine bureaucratic knife fights over intermediate (6.xx) cartridges and long haul munitions.

FREEFOR should sit back and take notes. And know this, your bolt gun will be a capital performer in the coming endarkenment if you know what you are about as a rifleman. The new Magpul Hunter stocks with removable magazines are taking this kind of rapid fire to the next level.

The Nordic countries take this to the next level already.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/06/04/16-hits-in-25-seconds-at-300-meters-with-a-bolt-action/
16 Hits in 25 Seconds… at 300 Meters… With a Bolt …

The “Pig Board” and other subsequent testing found that the .276 (American) and .280/30 (British ADE round) are the way to go for dominating the Infantry Half-Kilometer. Guns don’t kill people, physics kills people.

Range time is the primary life extension activity for FREEFOR.

You may publish as you see fit.

Sincerely,

BB

28 responses to “From Over The Transom

  1. Bolt guns are nothing to sneeze at./ S//

  2. SemperFi, 0321

    ROFL, this is just too precious to even comprehend.
    Behind my pile of AR’s and AK’s sit a few M/N, L/E and 03’s and behind that sits an accurized M-14 with S&B 1.5×6. I’ve been too embarrassed to even take it out of the house on account of it having been relegated to dinosaur duty, and I’ve been told innumerable times it’s actually worthless. Despite the fact I shot Rifle Expert in boot camp with one, I’ve had to hang my head in shame whenever I’m around younger shooters.

  3. Another option even faster than those linked- pick the 6.5 Grendel and buy uppers/mags/ammo for all the M16/M4 platforms RFN. With 123 grain projectiles these can be effective to 1000 yards. A MMG in that caliber ought to be an easy development/adaptation of existing tech.

  4. .276 is 7mm. So I guess they are talking about 6.5, and 6.8? I can’t see 7mm-08 as being viable due to cost.

  5. I’ve been on the wait list five years for a local range, and finally go to the orientation this month. They go out to 300 yards..

    This should be helpful to get on top of my bolt action .30-06. It shoots through schools.

  6. Centurion_Cornelius

    Thanks, CA, for your comments-above. Maybe because I am old and live near Camp Perry, but I’ve never set aside my M1A. Hell–still have my Garand and M2 ball at the ready along with a reliable bolt gun in .30/06. Sure the 5.56 is good for close stuff, but the 30 cal is the long-distance runner.

  7. Giving a presentation at an industry trade show… Where they sell stuff for overpriced contracts…

    “The threat (RUS, ISIS, al-Qaeda, others) continues to exploit the standoff advantages…” The Russian VDV has that sophistication (but they’re fighting ISIS too…right?), IS under al Shishani might have, with seasoned Chechens but no longer…the ‘others’, not so much. I’ve been in one of the fights Schatz referenced back in his 2015 article crying the same wolf. He wasn’t there, and it doesn’t look like he actually talked to anyone who really pulled a trigger.

    In addition, the Russians have not only been extensively testing the 6.5 Grendel, but now are mass producing it as well. (Wolf ammo and Molot producing a 6.5 AK variant for test, based on Marc Kreb’s prototype) It is shaping up to be the next-gen caliber of the AK-12. So there’s that…conspicuously overlooked, I’m certain.

    As per the PKM gunners, this is opposed to what…240L gunners doing the same thing in the exact same role? A gucci gear picture of two studs doing a reflexive drill with a belt fed doesn’t prove anything. (problem, reaction, solution…) Looks more like a big sales ad to me. Freedom Group and Colt are having a rough time as of late, btw. Nothing like a nice new contract bid to get sales up.

  8. If I’m not mistaken, US sniper teams field with an ‘accurized’ variant of a Rem 700 bolt gun as well as an M4 for close in personal defense. How problematic would it be to imbed long bolt guns at the squad level in, maybe and overwatch role?

    • That’s what the churched up M14 was intended to do and it did it well. There are only 750K or so still in war stocks, last I heard, but that number is quite old. Current big Army snipers are using a mix of rifles, starting with the M110.

      The problem here is the MIC has found a way to make money off the Infantry. The M4 is by far the most accurate in the M16 family and there are plenty of optics to choose from.

    • That’s not exactly true.

      I ran an M24 and just that often, especially when specifically targeting. Other guys ran the 110 (I didn’t care for it), a few 107s were available but the M24 (300 WM) proved more favorable, and one guy really loved the M14 with the Sage stock. “Sniper Teams” (the real term is SNOT- SNiper/Observer Team) are never just out there by their lonesome. They’re used in a supporting/overwatch role.

      So…long guns ARE embedded in Recon Teams at the BN level or BDE RSTA, Division Pathfinder or Corps Level LRS, and SOF.

      Like I alluded to in my comment above, the article is full of shit.

      • nc,
        Since you have been there, done that, and lived to tell about it, your experience and your writing abilities could help us all if you would elaborate here or at your site.
        Thanks in advance.

  9. I smell the stink of a snitch on this thread…

  10. Maybe “the answer” is just to use rifles in two different calibers like other armies have done. Russians run around with 3 or even 4 calibers (if we include the guy with the 12.7 sniper rifle) and it doesn’t seem to create nightmares for them. In the case of the USA just put more 7.62s into the field. Infantry units could have a higher percentage of the big bores while support and fobbit mos’s continue to carry the 5.56.

    Here’s an additional thought: if you CAN’T qualify with a 7.62 rifle, you should NOT be in the infantry. Doesn’t mean you carry one all the time, but you should be able to use one.

    In fact, let’s add foreign weapon qualification back into the equation and you have to take some pounding from 7.62 rifles like a G3 with the shitty stock buffer or something with solid metal on the end of the buttstock like an FAL para. I just back-doored keeping the physically weak off the front-lines (those who are recoil shy and prone to stress fractures are usually women).

    This would separate the men from the boys and in our supposedly post-modern army the valkyries from the handmaidens.

  11. Watching the video my jaw just dropped. The Mosin’s just winked back at me.

  12. The 6.5 was the most popular military Cal. in the world in 1899 and an epic fail at the end of the 19th and into the early 20th century’s. That’s WHY the 30-40 and later 3003/3006 were invented. That’s also why 90% of the world’s army’s changed over from 6.5 to 30 , 31 or 32 Cal. by the late 20’s. Only Italy and Japan still fielded the 6.5 at the start of WW2 and they QUICKLY learned that it was a poor combat round with ANY bullet geometry. So once more our beloved great brain trust will reinvent the wheel and piss away a few trillion of other peoples money. “But if we just spend enough money we can make it work this time”

  13. Thought I read somewhere that the military tested and considered the 257 Roberts/6mm at one time. I absolutely love the 257 for deer.

  14. Written with complete disregard for either:

    1. The 20″ M16A3/A4 variants with 7 twist barrels which deliver another 150-200fps on the 5.56, increasing effective range another 100-200 yards.

    2. The 77gr Mk262 ammunition capable of lethal engagement to 800 yards.

    Both of which are very boring, simple solutions to the problem from either an interim or permanent basis and result in far less drama than a short-term 5-10 year rifle replacement only to be replaced by yet another rifle and ammunition type in a high pressure, high profit margin method for the Military Industrial Complex.

  15. This is all very cute but a bit of a misdirection.
    90% of all High Value targets in the USA are in Urban/suburban terrain.
    The 5.56mm round is a superior man killer/stopper in those environments.
    Even if FREEFOR had an unlimited budget (and we dont) “cost” is not just the expense of buying stuff but the opportunity cost in carrying fewer rounds of ammo per man.
    For specialty applications (such as prairie, desert southwest, Afghan mountain plateaus, etc) bigger calibers are a desirable perhaps on occasion even a must.
    For our basic MAG,Prepper, Survivalist, FREEFOR Light Infantryman the Standard AR15 (or similar class weapon) is the supportable, affordable and effective firearm.

    We would be ill advised to blindly follow the .gov programs with their GWOT driven requirements sets for our own acquisition.
    Our KPPs (Key Performance parameters) will always be different and a few long range engagements in the GWOT do not change anything for us in our urbanized and wooded country.
    The Axiom that 90% of all Infantry engagements fall under 200m and 80+ under 100m is unchanged for us.

    If you operate a Squad size element nothing wrong with adding at least one guy with a 308, 30-06 or 7,62x64R etc. This in some scenarios this may complicate your opponents tactical solution sets and may deny him options.. But the vast majority of your men need to be equipped with a supportable, affordable, light and effective weapons system such as an AR15 in order to win the battle for fire superiority.

  16. A few technical points. First, generally speaking, full powered autoloaders such as AR-10s, SR-25s, FN-FAL, etc., tend to have greater durability problems than the intermediate sized rifles such as the M16 or AK-47 families. This will increase the need for parts and logistics support over the existing system. Second, the intermediate sized rounds are ideal for general issue in urban, jungle, and mechanized war. Only in a straight leg, open environment like Afghanistan are they at a significant disadvantage. In the other environments, the smaller rounds are at parity or better than the larger rounds for individual weapons. Also, despite what many people like to think, most of us, especially myself, don’t have the mad skills needed to make use of any real increase in range past 300m, especially in a dynamic, aerobic situation.
    As far as a civilian is concerned, the weapon should be decided by the terrain and other factors, arguably the most important being logistics. Even if the Army goes for another round now, the 5.56 will be in inventory for years to come, especially with reserve and support units, so keep that in mind for planning purposes.

  17. The Chinese have one of the better all-around cartridges. it’s basically a 6.8SPC case with a 6mm bullet of varying weights for varying proposes. Infantry to sniper.
    As its already been pointed out that carrying several kinds of ammo generally isn’t a problem for the army. This seems more like a non-existent problem looking for another expensive solution. Or if you like, some general needing a bigger retirement fund? (H&K execs. please take note.)
    I can’t help going back over the half truck load of gods creatures I’ve caused to bleed out after being hit by a simple 55 gr. FMJ in 223/556.
    Nasty and impressive enough to get the Russians to build the 5.45×39!
    Much deeper thinkers than I have observed that almost all firearm choices are a series of compromises. And for my old ass, a 77gr. bullet out of 16″ barreled carbine at 2700fps. a leupold 1×4 firedot, produces yomen’s work out to 600yrds.
    That being said I still have an AR-10 variant in the safe with host of bolt actions. After all, were not communist having to carry whatever the were handed.

  18. Flintlock Shooter

    I understand logistics, but I recommend 5.56mm and 6.5m or 7mm (.260 Rem vs 7mm-08 Rem (based on .308 Win)) for the service rifles. The .300 WM or .338 Lapua for those long shots. 5.56mm is good for city, .260 Rem or 7mm-08 for open ground, and .300WM or .338 Lapua for our Sniper Brothers.