Idaho 4 Day: Combat Rifle Skills / Combat Team Tactics
The Practical Application of Load, Gear, And Weight
How Is Tactical Training Constructed?
Get in shape.
Hey CA, no need to post this (unless you’re really dying to do so), but I believe you meant MVT not MDT, yes?
Ruck marches begin next week for me. 1.5 miles North to the state line, 1.5 miles back South. Several of those should get my gear kinks worked out. Then it changes to 2.5 miles South into town, 2.5 miles back North.
That’s MVT,Max,not JC,both good though to read through,coffee folks,coffee.
Yup. My bad. Thanks.
You meant MVT right?
Yup. My bad.
I believe you mean MVT not MDT.
Fixed. That’ll teach me to post while half asleep. Thanks.
Hey,thanks for posting/educating,will buy you a coffee we ever meet,least I could do,thanks again.
The rifle used by the person at 6:30 should be used as a club instead of a firearm. I saw him checking the seating of his mag with these apparent FTF. Might be ammo or a crappy mag, might be a really stiff/heavy buffer spring, might just be a dirty rifle who knows.
Just shows you some of the problems that can be encountered with equipment….even expensive equipment. Practice, practice, and practice.
Was the utilization of cover and the prone position part of the instruction given? Mag changes, transition to individual bounds, and 3-5 second rushes, etc? Were peels or break contact a portion of the training?
Not trying to sharpshoot here, but since this video is a headline and assuredly going to get a ton of views as well as being used for marketing (inadvertently or not) I want to ensure that people are getting their money’s worth.
What I see is the most basic level of team movement and bounding and am curious to know if training went beyond what I saw.
I ask these questions not to disparage, but because the men and women in this video and those taking future training are brothers and sisters to me and I want to ensure that they and those watching this don’t think that team successive bounds in the open from the kneeling position is where the training stops.
Again, no attempt at disparagement here.
“What I see is the most basic level of team movement and bounding and am curious to know if training went beyond what I saw.”
It’s hard to know where to start here, and I have little time becasue I am heading on the ranges for another CTT class. I will try:
1) Brilliance in the basics. At team fire and movement level, we are working on the basics.
2) What you see in the video are drills. Not tactics per se, although the drills are designed to be used tactically. Movement on the battlefield. Nuance here. These are put together tactically at the end of class in a squad attack.
3) MVT runs a progression of classes teaching tactics. Other than weapon manipulation classes, CTT (in the video) is the basic team tactics class.
4) Prone position etc are matters of personal choice and often relate to fitness and also considerations of speed of movement,
5) This is in fact way more advanced than most people ever do, stuck on the flat range, and uses more fitness than they usually have to execute, MVT classes are unique in the teaching of real battlefield live fire techniques.
6) If you want more ‘advanced courses’ then we offer combat patrol / direct action (ambush, raid etc). Close quarter Battle, and of course Force on Force Team Tactics and even the Combat Leader course (force on force based), Force on force is where you really learn if your drills and positions of cover are working. But master the basics. Many people do multiple CTT classes to do so, while jumping in and out of the more advanced classes.
7) Out here on the ranges on Idaho, as you can see from the video, there is not much in the way of cover, other than folds in the ground, and thus prone would be the option, balanced against PT and people trying to get through the class. I always tell people that PT is likely a given lesson, but they are here to learn the tactical techniques, not die trying.
You really need to do a class to understand. I urge video watchers with theoretical knowledge to come and train., You may learn that what looks ‘basic’ is not in any way as easy to master dynamically as it may look, or read in a book. When you see these drills, there is a lot going on that students have to master, while trying to not fix on the target, and remain aware of their team and what they are doing.
Oh, and everyone wants to know about the guy charging single shot. His gas block had worked loose. Probably not pinned. Lots of rifles come to class as ‘go to war’ and fail. hence realistic training to put them through their paces. We talk about this a lot on the MVT Forum.
P.S. If you read the bottom link “How is Tactical Training Constructed?’ it explains a lot of what I have tried to articulate above.
I’ve rewritten this several times to try and avoid sounding like I’m flaming you because I’m not. I’m actually quite grateful that you took the time to respond with candor and not snark. I also am making the assumption that your direct replies to me are somewhat also meant towards readers in general so I take no offense. If I should be offended, please let me know
1) Agreed this is the most very basic, which was the catalyst for my questions.
3) I understand now. This is the basic class. I quickly scanned through your offerings after seeing the video but didn’t catch that part. The apology is mine to give. Please accept it.
4) Agreed although we are somewhat talking cat-skinning here. If it works, it’s a good idea. However, and as I alluded, there is far more to it than what is shown. Again, basic class….Got it.
5) I concur completely. Done properly, bounding is a physical ass kicker and if you aren’t scuffed and bloodied and bruised you likely didn’t do it right. Better to catch some briars than a bullet. (Although I did know a salty ol’ Sergeant Major Vietnam who said that in Vietnam he never got physically tired during combat. Claimed he said he only went about 10′ at a time to the next piece of cover and only moved when they stopped shooting directly at where he was. Darned if he didn’t enjoy crushing us during BN PT though.)
Good response. My point sent from the ranges: most infantry do not get live fire training of the quality that we provide at MVT, as attested to by a number of combat veterans. Also, those with lower levels of PT will perform at lower levels on the individual movement techniques, but they will learn the techniques. We have trained, and have more coming in the future, US SOF units who appreciate this exact training opportunity.
From the moment you started this journey to help us citizen’s, I had faith in what your doing Max.
The thing you did that struck me as so excellent was you really looked at it, and how, you could bring something so difficult to define except by actually doing it, and doing this amazing task, without the enormous resources of a .gov .mil resources.
But one day it hit me, what you had done was one of those great epiphanies of action.
It is hard to define also. But you embraced the whole basis of combat, small unit infantry tactics, and turned it entirely into a holistic thing. In simplest terms, you not only embraced SUT, you embraced and incorporated the entire “infrastructure” of what you are doing in small unit unsupported infantry tactics basis of combat mentality and operations, you unified the two at the small unit/buddy/individual level. By doing so you made an incredible leap of faith possible, and truly a viable thing.
Does that make sense to you, because it still doesn’t exemplify what I trying to say here.
I can tell you, as maybe proof of what I’m saying, taking your SUT course, I became empowered, because of something that before had been an intangible. It was not just the physical live fire combat aspect. Because, how you defined, then showed, then had me go through the fundamentals of your ideas, the transformative thing was not just I now understood the unknown unknowns of combat, but I could survive with the minimalist infrastructure of small unit combat resources, because it incorporated the mind and the body aspects into a unified whole.
See, these two things are linked if I am to excel at being as good as I can at combat, to me. They are inextricably linked for me.
If you can understand my poor writing skills here, you understand the profound personal nature of what I learned because of that leap of critical faith and thinking you made.
And Brother, is that one son of a bitch to try and describe to others without the kind of training you gave me.
Maybe this sounds corny, but the only other way you could learn what I’m trying to describe is trial by enemy fire. If you live long enough.
I’m really glad your doing what your doing. I think about it a lot. How there are others that are as or more empowered by what your doing as I am.
That is a truly great thing.
My Hats off to you, and thanks!
Yep It is about transitioning the mind from the individual tactics of SWAT to team tactics of a military organization that achieves a synergy that is greater than the sum of the individuals.
“want to ensure that people are getting their money’s worth.
What I see is the most basic level of team movement and bounding and am curious to know if training went beyond what I saw.”
I am not trying to nitpick, but in the realm of cyberspace one is not able to judge a person by their looks and in order for me to assign a value to your opinion, I need to know what your qualifications are to critique what you saw.
BLUF: Although we are talking cat-skinning, I know what I am talking about.
However, fair enough. I made the statement and when questioned it is up to me to back the veracity of my claims.
I had two phases of a military career and five combat deployments.
PH1. Enlisted: Left the Marine Corps as a Sergeant and Infantry Squad Leader (0311 and 8152.)
After a break in service I realized I still had some fight in me and (ahem) went completely over to the dark side and…
Ph2. Commissioned Infantry Officer in the Army where I am months way from retiring as a CPT and Company Commander.
Good. What you seeing are civilians with no prior .mil after 1-2 days of training and probably never having trained together before as a team. I’d like to see an 11b or 0311 look that good after 2 days. You have to keep things in perspective.
My challenge to you: After you retire, start teaching people what you know. If you dont like the way MVT does it, then start your own school. There are people out there who want to learn.
Clarification: I am a CPT and I am a Company Commander and I will be retiring in a couple of months.
Learn to hunt, you’ll be glad you did. If you can’t afford training classes then just learn to hunt. All the basics are there, Orientation, Camo, Conceal, Stealth, Movement, Terrain recognition, Phys workouts etc etc. You will find wild game preferable to crap offered in your SUPER markets.
Max appears to be one squared away MFWIC from his posts and vids. You folks getting his training will surely have an edge.
Ah so! But to combine the two, buddy, now your talking. I know first hand. It changes everything putting the two together. You are better at it, for it, both ways.
For those that want to ‘challenge the system’ of MVT training, I have previously posted about a massive Father’s Day discount for Force on Force training June 17 – 18:
Come and have a go if you think you are good enough! No pre-requisites!
Lord God at least they get to run on flat land.
These are the initial drills, Not tactics per se.
Some constructive criticism:
These people really need to be prone when not moving unless they can’t see above the grass. The target they present is far easier to hit when kneeling in a grassy pasture.
We obviously don’t know what else they were doing that day and everyone was likely very tired from the day’s activities. That said, they really need to work on speed. Those bounds should be done in half the time and bounding should be at a dead sprint in 3 seconds.
The last charge though the objective was slow and didn’t scare me. When charging an objective it needs to be done with maximum speed and violence of action. Scare the hell out of your enemy just before you put rounds through them.
Though, it’s great that they’re out there at all. Keep training people.
A fist full of valium and I’m back for awhile. Stay out of open areas. Stay in the tree line. Avoid crossing wide open areas if at all possible. Binoculars. I lost buddies because they never used them.
Nope. Taliban load out at like excluding rifle and they won.
I have a foolproof tactic. I call it my D.I.P. maneuver. Its effective to a point.
(for the uninitiated that’s Die In Place) But that’s just me.
Good on all y’all. Train,drill & rehearse; rinse, repeat. Get it while you can.
Gas blocks come loose remarkably often to guys who have never shot their guns until they get hot enough to loosen up the Loctite holding their set screws. There is a good reason M-16’s and M-4’s all have pinned gas blocks. Something to think about if you think you may have to get your weapon warmer than your average range session or 3-gun match…
the baseball cap thing just doesn’t work for me…
buy a boonie.
Maybe you can buy them all hats with your millions,…. coward. Oh and, in response to your dumber than a bucket o’ shit assumption that I’m a “holy roller”. You’re wrong, again. I bet you’ve grown used to that by now though eh, coward?… Seems I may have touched a nerve with you when I pointed out that men (you don’t qualify) DO and cowards (that’d be your category) GOAD…… I eagerly await your next “witty” rejoinder, coward. The laughs you provide are priceless, nowadays….
puss puss broke boi
there is nothing quiet as stupid looking as a full grown man wearing a ball cap.
unfortunately, this country is filled with immature retards wearing one.
A reminder to those identifying “errors” in the training. Tactical training is different from unit training. The tactical trainers are taking a number of people who may have never met and may have no combat arms or any military experience at all and teaching basic tactics. Granted that taking the BS out of Army Basic Training or its flavor of the month equivalent saves a great deal of time, but still takes more than the 3 to 5 days of a typical course.
Army trainees spend about a week on the range with m4/M16 alone …. And we are not yet up to Infantry training. As eager as the students are to learn, there is only so much material they can assimilate in 5 days or less, so the concept is the take away from the experience.
The next level is unit training, where a functioning unit with experienced leaders are incorporating new people into the teams and improving the combat capability of the unit by proper use of terrain, cover, and concealment. They also work on better disciplined radio procedure, light and noise discipline, etc. If you don’t have the basics down, the best noise discipline in the world will not save your ass.
There is only so much that can be taught, with a sufficient number of repetitions to ensure the concept is inculcated for a given amount of training time.
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