A Suggestion

Via Twitter.

Related:

And:

31 responses to “A Suggestion

  1. Shooting with irons has become like driving a stick shift, critical to know but not all that common really.
    And no rifle is not fine… fully operational but not fine.

  2. Kel-tec SU-16

  3. how many here have an ACOG?

    starting at $1300. i doubt very many…

    being you’ll likely never really need it.

    makes more sense to pick one up from a dead gubmint stooge, which again, is not likely to happen anytime soon- or ever.

    nice to have?- sure.

    needed? not hardly.

    • Had one. Loved it. Traded it in for a 12x vortex. Regret doing so.


    • There’s not going to be any “dead government stooge” if you can’t hit your effing target, genius. That’s why that’s not likely to happen anytime soon – or ever.

      Maybe you could sell some of your vast imaginary holdings, move into the 21st century, and stop imagining everyone else is as (literally) short-sighted as you.

      Which again, is not likely to happen anytime soon – or ever.

      And BTW, for those with an actual clue, an EOTech will get you the same capability, for <$500.
      The other $800 will buy you a lot of CR-1s and ammo.

    • I have more than one.

      Good glass lasts a long time, I have a 40+ year old Redfield that functions like it did when new. Not as good as those produced now, with the sophisticated coatings and ED glass, but it’s usable.

  4. I spend the money on a TA31.

    I learned on irons in boot, but after hitting the fleet, there’s no going back from the ACOG.

  5. Irons are just fine. All a scope does is better define the aiming point. But if you don’t know how to shoot to begin with a scope ain’t going to help you.
    S//

    • TheyCallMeRockStar22

      I have taken people who have never shot a rifle before and put them behind a scope and they are blitzing targets at 100 meters with a 30-06. I was pretty impressed. So impressed that I was actually a little distressed thinking about a “tits up” scenerio. You are correct in your statement because I spent about 20 minutes walking them through the 4 points. The real struggle? Proper Trigger discipline, and that is earned through muscle memory and only muscle memory. I think we can both agree that 90% of shooting starts on the floor with a rifle, dimes, and a cleaning rod. Even the competition shooters practice dry firing more then they shoot.

  6. It depends. I like irons as well as anyone and have used them a lot. If the .mil thinks that 20-something guys benefit from the ACOGs that tells you something. If you have substantially more mileage a good sight picture may be just a memory; a good optic puts you back in business. “Mad Dog” Mattis says that the ACOG is the best thing that has happened to the infantryman since the Garand. I agree.

    Be that as it may, my understudy gun is a 15-22 with a Bushnell TRS-25 1X red dot–which punches way above its weight class.

  7. Leupold makes a 4×36 fixed for $350, and a similar 2.5X IER that are very solid. I’ve had excellent results out to 300 yards with a 4X on a bolt gun.

    Worked for Grandpa, works now.

    • TheyCallMeRockStar22

      True story, you can print up a scaled BDC and packing tape that to the side of your rifle. You can use the BDC as a on-the-fly reference to determine proper drop. I have taught some buddies to make 900 meter Iron Maiden shots with their deer rifles using this technique. Bullet drop is bullet drop. Gravity doesnt change unless your attack angle changes. But still. Who shoots 900 metter uphil in any major city or metropolitan area? Or Farmville? Answer? Only dudes in the west rockies fending off the Marxist hordes of the future. How to do this? Go to google images the next time you are looking through someones ACOG(in proper caliber and BDC) get the sizing right and test. I bet you 100 bucks it works.

  8. singlestack

    I can’t get a good sight picture with irons any more so I switched my rifles to apertures. If I can see you I can hit you.

  9. Hadenoughalready

    Every “tool” has a purpose. Whether it’s specific or not depends on the handler, the job at hand and how the handler utilizes it.
    I used to hunt squirrels, as a kid, with a .22 and found that scopes are great until you needed to chase one.
    Personally, I’ll take irons over a scope anytime (10″ paper plate at 400 yds is acceptable)…unless I’m sniping or in the dark. That’s when my Russian (sshhh..don’t tell the dems) NV scope comes in really handy.
    The downside: most ACOGS and NV scopes require batteries and unless you’ve got a solar set-up and NI-Cads, you’re limited. In battle, limits are NOT good.
    Think ahead, folks…

    • ACOGs don’t require batteries, they use sunlight in the day time, a tritium tube at night.

      In the red dot, non-magnification offerings, both Aimpoint and Trijicon at at the top of the heap, while they do require batteries, those last over 50,000 hours in both brands.

      The advantage of both is that the target and reticle or dot are all on the same focal plain. Irons use three focal plains; the rear sight, front sight, and target.

      My vehicle gun uses a non-magnifying red dot sight. I can turn it on and leave it on for years.

      • Hadenoughalready

        Thanks for the information. Always did like the red-dot and thought about getting one until I found a FLIR model. Now THAT is something I might save up for.

  10. Trijicon has gotten fat and rich on military and LE contracts, and consequently, they don’t take the civilian market – or customers – all that seriously. My experience with their customer service has been less-than-stellar, especially given the fact that I dropped more than a grand to get their product.

    I own an ACOG TA11H-G 3.5x with green horseshoe and BDC – and like it. It is a robust, well-made optic, easy to mount and sight-in, and it delivers a lot of accuracy for the fact that it is only 3.5x. However, on the downside, it has no useful windage hold-off markings, and the BDC reticle is not accurate except with the barrel length, round and muzzle velocity for which it was designed.

    I found out after getting mine that it was designed for a 14.5 inch barrel M4 using M855 at 2858 fps – in other words, the BDC isn’t calibrated to 16 or 20-inch barrels. There was no indication of this fact anywhere on the packaging or promotional material that I saw before the purchase. That’s poor decision-making on Trijicon’s part.

    I did field testing at all of the BDC range increments on a windless day under virtually perfect conditions using my ACOG on a 16-inch barreled LE6920, using the M855 ammo specified – and the BDC was only on out to about 300 meters. After that, everything was high over the target – sometimes by as much as 2-3 moa. That’s not good enough for an optic pushing $1700.

    Trijicon was reluctant to disclose the reticle subtension data for their BDC, so I had to back-calculate it empirically in the field, doing measurements of my own. That’s lousy service, considering that their competitors are more than willing to share such information for scopes costing – in some cases – $1200 less than an ACOG.

    The reticle and BDC on my TA11H-G are fine, but now dated in comparison to the competition. Primary Arms offers the ACSS reticle, which is state of the art, in optics costing 1/5th as much as an ACOG. The ACSS is a far-superior design to the reticle in my ACOG.

    There is no parallax adjustment in the optic, either – which poses a problem for some users.

    The photo-collector fiber optic tube is almost too-efficient, and on bright, sunny days, I have to put a piece of duct tape over part of the tube so that it does not collect too much light and make the reticle too bright. The engineers should have foreseen this problem and built a fix into the design. At roughly $1600 out the door, that’s not good enough.

    Trijicon’s patents will expire soon, and at that time, perhaps the company will consider making their ACOGs available at a price more-reflective of their current value in the open marketplace. Right now, I consider them excellent optics, but overpriced and delivering less value for the dollar than their competitors.

    Admittedly, my need as a civilian are very different from those of a soldier or a cop, but perhaps my perspective will be useful to someone anyway.

    • 8th Dwarf Surly

      A big fan of the ACSS reticle. I have a gen 2 PA 1-4x that is really a great little optic for the money. I also have the Holosun red dot (red chevron) that uses the ACSS reticle and it is really pretty phenomenal. I also have an ACOG with the ACSS which is simply the a great piece of glass. The only draw back is that the ACOG reticle is TINY compared to that of the powered scope. My eyes are 20/20 or better and it appears pretty small. That said, the calibration has been dead nuts on out to 300yds.

  11. The British Army don’t issue iron sights to front line infantry for their rifles. They get an Elcan with a red dot on top also laser module.

  12. I’ve had two ACOGs. One for a M14 type rifle and the other was the USMC RCO model TA31RCO-M4CP with a RMR on top for close encounters. Yup. Expensive. Great scopes, except for my eyes, the eye relief was too close. Ended up selling both and getting a Vortex Strike Eagle w/BDC. Extremely happy with it for clarity, accuracy in BDC, and durability in the woods. (I don’t abuse my optics or weapons with, IMHO, foolish ‘torture tests’ to see if they can survive it either) I would have liked the ACOG to have had better eye relief, and if they did, would not have sold them, but there’s no adjustability, so they had to go. I did keep the RMR as a back up sight if my other M-4gery’s Aimpoint Comp M4. The Vortex works fine, and I always have back up iron.

  13. @Dienekes I love my TRS-25. I can make good hits at 0-200 all day but I have been thinking about upgrading to a 1×6 as my eyes blur a little due to being almost 50. Either way I will never give up my iron sights. A2 up front, Troy folding in back.

  14. I love shooting with magnified scopes.

    I also treat them like Faberge eggs, because the are not made of iron.

    Mr. Murphy also loves scopes and battery powered devices, therefore I also know and love iron sights, because Mr. Murphy is that kind of fucker.

  15. Iron sights are all you need. Better at close range, too.
    Spend the money on more ammo.

  16. Thomas T. Tinker

    ??? I’m a ‘Former Marine’ now … never have forgotten that I was always worried about the shmuck out there with the beater AK, SK, SMLE or K98 …. not the quality of optics they proly didn’t have. Nice to have on my side … but the ‘Shmucks’ have sent alot of Brits, Russians and US home in bad state .. some in boxes and bags with those unadorned beaters ‘Da’ the rifle is fine… if the shooter is. The idea that I’ll never be without a quality optic when ever… I need one is foolish. If you have the money for an optic… goody! If you have the money for a beater… Goody!

  17. My eyes are bad enough now I pretty much have to use optics. Distance is sharp as ever though.

  18. Colorado Pete

    If you intend on being competent with a rifle, you absolutely need to know how to shoot well with irons – any type, including the God-awful factory open sights that come on modern domestic sporting rifles that are clearly never meant to be used. Why? Because you never know what you may wind up having to use. That said, a simple and sturdy optic is great if you can swing it, especially when your eyes are old or bad (like mine).
    Skill and versatility matter.

  19. m70shooter

    I have both myopia and astigmatism. So I can see close just fine, see irons just fine, – but not with my corrective lenses, which are set for far away. Can’t wear them when I shoot.

    So yeah, I can shoot to 600 yds with irons, but only of the target is big enough for me to see and hold on it with my uncorrected vision. Can’t see that far without glasses, but can’t see or shoot for shit with them on.

    I have one AR with a T-1 red dot (and suppressor) for indoor/ repel boarders work, and a clone of it with Burris 1-5x for outdoor work. It has illuminated center, so at 1x I can keep both eyes open and use it like a red dot, but can crank up the magnification and identify targets (very important) at distance. The BDC reticle allows me to bang 8×8 steel plates to 500 yards easily.

    There’s a solution for everybody, just have to figure it out.

  20. TheyCallMeRockStar22

    The ACOG is a great scope. Worth every penny. You can make 900 meter shots no problem. The only way to really tighten up shot groups is to spend an hour or two in the Prone sitting on glass. I watch TV or listen to the radio and stretch in the prone. Your muscles HAVE to learn how to be still and steady. Same with the muscles in your eyes. You have to practice and 90% of that starts at home. The range is the final exam, war is the Diploma. No homework= Failure.