Practical Marksmanship Lesson

From a WRSA commenter:

If you have a hard time with graphs and charts(Or if you want another trick to remember) I have another trick for you.

Hold your Sight on the Belt Buckle.

Belt Buckle is your point of aim.

At 25 meters/yards its dead on.

At 50 meters/yards it lands in his belly button.

At 100 meters/yards it lands on his solar plexus.

At 150 meters/yards it lands on his upper chest.

At 200 meters yards it lands on his solar plexus.

At 250 meters/yards it Groups around his belly button

At 300 meters/yards it Groups around his belt buckle.

At 300 meters your 2 MOA dot is the size of your Target’s Face and your Irons are about the size of his shoulders.

Level your front sight post on to the chest at his Nipple Line or put that Red Dot’s top apex on the base of the targets neck.

Then… Always fire 3 rounds @ 300 meters/yards or beyond in a slow succession. This is to account for the decrease in terminal velocity(less damage), weapon heat, and for your spread due to inherent MOA.

This process works for match ammo or bulk ammo.

And should be used with both.

It’s best to let your triggers reset be released in a reversed fashion compared to your pull. This will keep you steady and wise during firing.

Now the Formula is.

300 meters/yards is “dead on”

350 meters/yards groups on the solar plexus area.

400 meters/yards groups on the belly button.

450 meters yards groups on the belt buckle.

500 meters/yards groups on the thighs.

550 meters/yards groups on the knees.

600 on the feet.

Now. Past 600 is alot harder to shoot on the fly than you think because of wind and your angle. You need to fire 5 rounds slowly and methodically at any range past 600 meters or yards with any 5.56 round.

FYI this is called the “Fly Formula” for letting lead fly on the fly at multiple targets.

You need to level your Irons on your target’s “head” to get a pelvis/guts/chest group @ 600 meters.

If you can see that far good for you. I can as I am blessed with the gift of uncorrected 20/20 vison. Some people are not or no longer with age. Buy a scope. ACOG works great. So do traditional scopes.

Ignore 650, 750, 850, and 950 meters.

Just add a “head” to each point of aim at 700, 800, 900, and 1000 yards.

Fire your 5 rounds very carefully. You can fire 2-3 rounds before your target even hears it at these distances.

This works very well. You should get 2-3 hits out of 5 rounds at 600 meters. And probably 1-2(probably 1) @ 1,000

And that’s all. I used to be a SDM in Sadr City, Baghdad. So fuck you if you disagree. This shit works.

I just taught you how to kill bad guys like a real meat eater.

Sips Tea*

98 responses to “Practical Marksmanship Lesson

  1. Assuming a 300 yard zero on rifle?

    • My question as well….?

    • 25 Yard/Meter Zero with Irons or Red Dot.

    • For the Record I recommend a Scope for a 100 Meter Zero at all times except for the Following. A 300 meter Zero on a rifle that is a designated LR deterrent in an LP/OP or a Nest/Hide. For Foot Patrols, Stalks and FootWork I would Rock a 100 Meter. Even in mountain terrain. Your buddy can rock a 300 if you have a 100. But thats up to you.

    • 25M zero is same as 300M zero and way easier to see for adjustment. Verify at long range.

  2. Finally we are getting back to some good ole fashioned gun stuff around here!

  3. Pedrothemerciless

    First, thanks for your service. Your advice however… all super-useful for a target behind no cover, not shooting back or moving. Other than that, the ballistics are baloney. Match ammo 77gr SMK and M855 behave totally differently – you can’t tell people “match or bulk ammo are the same”. And out of what barrel? What is the weapon zero for these “tricks”? Have you ever looked at a drop chart, bro? M855 drops about 50″ at just 400 yds so your “titty aim” will drop harmlessly in the dirt at that distance. Now compared with just 30″ drop in the 77gr. and you might plug the guy in the nutsack. BTW, 400 yds is only 365m – so stop interchanging them!

    Forget the “tricks”, there are none:
    1. Learn and train with YOUR weapon system, know its (and your own) capabilities and limitations.
    2. Learn and practice your holdovers plus height over bore at CQB distances. The belt buckle… Jesus help us!
    3. Practice range estimation. This includes target size estimation as well.
    4. Aim small, miss small
    5. Practice shooting from awkward, untraditional positions. V-Tac wall is great for this. “Flat-range-ninja-pose” has zero real world application.

    Sips Black Rifle Coffee™

    • This is for the Fly. If you are aiming down hill or up hill stuff can change drastically. This is for a level engagement. Remember that a Front sight post is the width of a mans shoulders at 300 meters/yards and a red dot is about the size of a mans face at that distance. Again. This is for the fly. If you and yours need to make a bulleye shot, I recommend a bigger gun than a 5.56. And Imagine 30-40 people all using this formula. Or 4 of your buddies in a pickup truck. This is some serious voodoo and should be taken seriously. It’s basic Volley Fire and has been used with great effect in Syria and Yemen. Despite Volley fire being considered obsolete by all military geniuses in the 1880’s-1900’s.

    • What is a “flat range ninja pose?”

      • That is a shooting range. I guess this shooter doesn’t know that most fields and streets in urban areas try to be as level as possible. This Formula is to give you a “minds eye visual” of what your rounds are probably going to do in a fire fight.

        I was taught this method by some very serious shooters. I can assure you it works as I watched 250 Paratroopers and Green Berets practice this at Bragg and Kuwait before we Helo’d into Sadr City.

        You can pick up any 5.56 rifle and use this formula with great effect. Especially if it only has a red dot or iron sights. As long as it has a standard Nato 25 meter zero. Which it probably will.

    • At 400 yards or 365 meters, If your round fired goes high or low(Because of MOA), which will happen with an AR using any ammo, firing in a sustained rate warming the barrel, that 35 yard/meter distance variable is literally pennies. And you already have the MOA circle of death over your target. You could hit him in the arm, shoulder, chest, neck, He could be ducking or diving after the first round zips past hime.

      Lots of things can go wrong.

      If you have 4 trained guys shooting like this, That guy is fucking dead. Whether or not he was at 365 meters or 400 yards.

      This Formula is obviously below your level of expertise, but for the new guys you pickup during the hard times ahead. This is gold.

      Also, This Formula works, and it works with any gun you pick up in 5.56.

      So remember that when you Get a Famas, F2000, L85, or an AUG field pickup.

  4. That’s some good shit. Thanks.

    I’m an old (boomer) 😉 ex-jarhead pogue who took his 20-something sons out for some rifle range play last week. We tried out my new red dot on my AR carbine for the first time. We didn’t have optics in the crotch back in my day, and I have to admit I struggled with it, although the sons did OK.

    When I switched back to the irons I shot pretty good…even with these old boomer eyes. I need more practice with the optics.

    The question remains. What zero you are using??

    • This works. The spread gives you nearly 100 percent kill rate on any target out to 1000 yards if you have a fire team that is trained up. Works on the range and in the sand box. Never hit the slopes.

    • 25 meter Zero my friend. A 25 meter Zero also regroups at 300 meters as the bullets travels through its trajectory.

      • Not a single public range around me has lanes measured in meters, every place uses yards. Would a 25 yard zero give basically the same results in the distances measured in yards vs meters?

        • Yes. And Due to the performance of a 5.56 cartridge, the changes between meters and yards is nominal at any distance out to 1,000 meters and yards. Besides, this is a best guess give ’em hell method of target engagement.

        • Got rangefinder (optical or electronic)? Measure actual distance vs marked distance. Useful in golf, forestry, mapping, etc. Add a little first week geometry and measure slope angles, etc.

      • Thomas T. Tinker

        Seems the ‘Green Machine” used to Zero us in the field at 36 ‘Yards’?? Put us in the button down zone out to 4oo with only one hold over for 5oo……… Shit changes along with the retirement schedules. Zeroed my parts gun red dot at 36 yards….. works for me… but I’m only using a 12″ torso steel and anything beyound 300 yards gets a pass form me.

        Good info RockStar22. Piss on the pickycouchcommados…. there opinion is worth about as much as the pocket change, popcorn or pizza bones stuck under the cushions.

        • Try a 25 meter Zero, and if you are using my formula, you can lay down area suppression on that “Fuzzy blob in the distance” if you follow commands based on the needs of your fire team leader, Troops in contact, or fire commander.

  5. Finally – a “Barney Style” tutorial without technically written eyewash! This brain-dead format should be considered for future “praxis-type” articles.

    • It’s literally All I use. On my Bolt runs I obviously keep dope printed out. An AR is an very accurate gun, but in the wind the 5.56 lacks ass, and past 600 it barely has enough energy to honestly be considered “Immediately Lethal”, making successive shots on the fly will warm your barrel, and also being hit with adrenaline, you can only expect so much out of your weapon system. This helps to eliminate the short comings of the rifle through statistics and probability. As your bullet diameter gets larger, you can decrease the number of rounds fired to account for ammo supplies. A 10 year old kid who doesn’t get Algebra, but can shoot dime at 25 meters, could be effectively lethal out to 1,000 yards with a 600 dollar AR using this formula.

    • I have to agree with you. Especially for the new shooter who is just learning the weapon system, this tutorial is perfect. Not only is it simple, but it makes sense. It is similar to how we used to zero our deer rifles back in the day. That is for those of us who are not former military, but who have picked up a gun before, just not with the same proficiency that most of you all have. And I agree, RockStar22, thank you for your service, and for this post.

  6. No disagreement here…thanks for the info.

  7. A 25 yard zero (BZO) is a 300 yard zero. Great post!

    • Yeah that would be true.

    • True. And in fact you need to confirm your 25 meter Zero at 300 yards. Some guns are picky. Which is why you need to sort out your accurate guns from your parts/backup guns.

  8. He isn’t kidding. The other nice thing about that zero is that head/partial body shots inside 200 or so use a low hold so you can see what you’re aiming at. If you’re fortunate enough to have a range with steel targets, it’s worth the time to walk downrange and put a fresh coat of paint on ’em to see how you’re doing.

    His notes on resetting alone are worth the time. It’s called follow through and we’ve spent so much time teaching people to keep their finger off the trigger they now release it upon firing like it’s burning their finger. If you have someone who has trouble zeroing, watch how they release the trigger after the shot breaks. A beer says they’re jerking the trigger in reverse. Make them hold it until the rifle quits moving, then check the results.

    Three shots carefully: It bears repeating.

    • Yes “Follow Through” That is the proper term. And 5 Rounds past 600. @ 900 Meters the M-4 is mathematically MOA capable of making 1 out of 4 shots. So Fire 5.

    • Straight up miracle cure.

  9. Rules for a Gunfight

    Anonymous

    1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

    2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap – life is expensive.

    3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

    4. If your shooting stance is good, you’re probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

    5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

    6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

    7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

    8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

    9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on “pucker factor” than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. “All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket.”

    10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

    11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

    12. Have a plan.

    13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won’t work.

    14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

    15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

    16. Don’t drop your guard.

    17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

    18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)

    19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

    20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

    21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

    22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

    23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

    24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than “4”.

    25. You can’t miss fast enough to win.

    • Randall Flagg

      Good points. But Frank Drebin may disagree with a few…

      • Randall,
        Thanks for the excellent quote from Abp. Sheen. He sure had a way with words…. if only he had turned his tongue against the modernists!

        • Randall Flagg

          Right on.

          Abp. Sheen is always good for a quote. Here’s another, from at least 40 years ago (most likely 50+):

          “Freedom is not just something with which we are born; it is something we achieve. America did not receive a perpetual endowment of freedom; it has had to struggle and fight to preserve it. Freedom is not an heirloom or an antique; it is a life that must fight against the corrosive powers of death and nourish itself on the daily bread of goodness and virtue.” Archbishop Fulton Sheen

    • 26. Incoming has the right of way.

    • Credit where due. You didn’t originate all that… at least 50% Cooper.

  10. 26. When moving backwards drag your feet so you won’t trip, can socot debris, chair, bottle, etc., out of the way.

    • And pick up your feet at night. Prevents you from tripping over almost everything and helps prevent rolling your ankle.

  11. What are your thoughts on the 50 meter BZO? That what I run due to the extremely flat shooting trajectory of the 5.56. My philosophy has been if the target (man sized) is wider than the front sight post, hold center mass (belt buckle/belly) and fire. If the target (man sized) is narrower than the front sight post, lollipop the head and fire. That’s the quick and dirty, oh shit this is real, rang finding I’ve come up with. I would like some input from someone who has actually done this sort of shit for keeps.

    • What’s up Brother.

      So, You are not wrong. In fact I have tested the 50 meter zero several times.

      A 50 meter Zero would “Half” my formula’s “dope”. But it would not change the basic MOA of your rifle, MOA of its ammo, the combined Rifle/Ammo MOA, and the size of your rifle Front Sight post.

      MOA stacks. If you have a 1/4 MOA Match rifle(Much like my Highly recommended Noveske) but you feed it M855(Which has a 3 MOA), You have a 3-4 MOA rifle.

      I recommend a 25 meter Zero(With the Rounds Grouping just above your Front sight Post) because this is what your Front sight post is sized for and what most red dot and holographic optics were designed for. The front sight post on an AR is sized to be proportionally the same width of an average man’s shoulders at 300 meters. If you change to a 50 meter zero you are slightly throwing off the intentionally engineered mechanics of the rifle. Which, IMHO, changes the usefulness of your weapon. And since someone who may have to use your weapon would likely assume a 25 meter zero considering the standard “NATO” appearance and bullet.

      Print off some M-4/M-16 Standard NATO 25 meter zero targets. Zero at 25 meters. And then you can apply this formula at any time without having to adjust the elevation BDC on the side of your military grade rear sight. The Man Sized “Ivan” silhouette on this Nato Target is what an average man looks like from the waist up at 300 meters. A 25 meter zero is ALSO a 300 meter group. In fact it is about a 9-12 inch group at 300 meters(Assuming a 3-4 MOA “military” style load selection) and your bullet can land anywhere in that 9-12 inch group. Which is why you need to fire 3 rounds past 300 to 600 and 5 rounds past 600-1000. This is intended to eliminate the inherent inaccuracy of your rifle. Laying all blame on the shooters skill and tactics since your rifle is not capable of grouping any better.

      You can also mix and match parts. Which is common. For instance you could have an M-16 rear carry handle with rear sight on a M-4 (Or an M-4 Carry handle on a M-16) and this would still work. Or you could have an Eotech, or any 2 MOA Aimpoint red dot.

      This formula is great and in a half a day you can have some pretty amazing understandings of what your rounds are doing as they fly through the air at known distances.

      When you shoot a 3-4 MOA rifle, which is standard for 90% of military small arms, this formula will put you in the “Next Level Dangerous” category with any 5.56 round.

      For the Advanced Course in long range shooing with Irons, You can cant your rifle to the left(Counter Clockwise) and Us the point edge of the right side of your front sight post. All you need to do is click your rifles windage adjustment 6 clicks to the right for a 1/2 MOA adjustment, and 12 clicks for 1/4 MOA. The Sharp Point 90* degree angle on the right side of your rifle can also be used to tighten up your groups past 300 meters. For this I recommend only using military grade rear sights(1/2 MOA adjustment per click I believe) or match grade(Typically 1/4 MOA adjustments per click) as the civilian rear sights can vary in machined precision.

      Canting your rifle and using the ” right point” of your front sight post can drastically increase visibility of your targets at 300 meters and beyond.

      That trick requires range time to confirm. Not all rifles are equal. Sometimes you find a cheap 600 dollar rifle that is inheritently more accurate than its sisters. I have a 600 Dollar Del-ton I parted as an upper and a lower. It shoots about 1 MOAish. I was pretty pleased with that purchase. My friend’s Delton is not quite as accurate as mine. Although its perfectly accurate enough.

    • * The BZO is 50 yards, not 50 meters, I misspoke. Allegedly it gives just a couple inches of rise/fall from 50 yards out to 250 meters.

    • I forgot to mention. If you use a 50 meter zero on you AR-5.56, You are giving yourself the misconception that it is a “flat” shooting cartridge. Imagine looking down an ACOG BDC for an M-4 or an M-16( They have slightly Different BDCs; the Trijicon Website has pictures of their reticles) The M-4 ACOG BDC only goes out to 600 and the M-16 only goes out to 800.

      Now, Imagine if the ACOG was zeroed at 200 meters instead of the 100 meter zero as prescribed. The BDC’s would shift accordingly and appear to be more “Flat”

      Your BDC would look “More Flat”. You are suffering from the same “illusion” with your Red Dot or Irons. No round fires flat. In fact, gravity affects all rounds as soon as they leave the barrel. It’s the speed at which the bullet moves that changes the effects of drop. All rounds drop the same assuming they move the same speed laterally.

      Changing the zero does not affect drop. It merely compensates and gives the illusion of better accuracy. The round still has the same trajectory. Only your Line of Sight has changed.

      If any other shooters read this and I am incorrect, please adjust for discrepancy. It has been about 5 years since my last time on an LR course.

      • The 25 yard zero was once known as the 25 yard field expedient zero and was a combat thing for picking up someone else’s rifle and getting in the ball park, absent a proper range. It is a hangover we aren’t going to cure in my lifetime.

        For general Infantry use, a 50 yard zero effectively halves the drop at 300. Makes sense in that context as Army ranges don’t go past that, we make liberal use of supporting arms, and it’s a rare day you can ID a target at that range. I like it for that reason, and have seen several hundred troops trained on it. For longer range? Meh. RS’ techniques are fine, assuming clean skills and an accurate rifle. If you can free float the M4(gery) barrel, things look up quickly. Otherwise….

        I meant to mention this earlier, but if you don’t have access to steel, toss some clay pigeons/paper plates/spray paint some rocks on the berm and back up. Adjust until you get in the vicinity using 3-5 round strings. Volley fire works. A spotter helps.

        BTW, the Aimpoint is zeroed a bit below POA @ 25. 4.5 squares on the zero target, as I recall. Read the instructions.

        • The purpose of this post is a trick to use an M-4 or M-16 style rifle.

          You can shot steel at 1,000 meters with an M-4 using M855. But you have to fire about 5 rounds to get one-two impacts.

          I have used this tactic a dozen times. It works.

          If you have access to mortars or belt feed weapons; than by all means. But past 300-1000 meters, You would use Direct Lay on a Mortar Anyway and this Formula works for a SAW(You know, because they fire the same ammo and are zeroed at 25 meters?) This formula works just fine but it’s 1 burst to 300 , 2 bursts to 600, and 3 bursts to 1,000.

        • I have tested the “Where do you properly zero your *Insert Brand*”

          It doesn’t really matter and is hardly noticeable or even perceivable, on a stock basic gun with military ball.

      • Your right. Velocity has no effect on gravity. A bullet fired from a gun perfectly parallel to the ground and one of the same weight dropped at the exact same time the first one left the end of the barrel would both hit the ground at the same time. We must raise the muzzle up slightly to compensate for distance, the faster the bullet is travelling.And so the less we have to raise it up, and so we call it a flatter shooting round. So at 25 meters our bullet crosses a line and then again at 300 meters it comes back down from it’s arc and crosses it again, so we have zero at both distances. With heavier bullets, it changes. The 180 grain core lokt we shot, we would zero at 25 yards, and they were also good at around 100 yards. This was for deer hunting with 30-06 and the like. And most of our guns were not as accurate as you can buy today for 300$. Anyway, take this for what it is worth.

  12. The truly dangerous man does not wear camouflage fatigues or muscle shirts. He does not talk loudly, boast how tough he is, give demonstrations or make threats. The truly dangerous man dresses inconspicuously and is soft-spoken. He walks away from most confrontations. The only time you learn that the truly dangerous man is mad at you is a split second before you die, for he never fights. He only kills. The truly dangerous man knows that fighting is what children do and killing is what men do.

    • As a former bouncer in Baltimore I learned you fight to win or you fight to lose.

      The decision to win or lose is made long before the confrontation ever occurs.

      I believe Patton said someting similar about “defensive” Positions.

  13. Henry Bowman

    Any data for 7.62×39? .30-06?
    That would be helpful for those who don’t have an AR.
    Thanks!

  14. Randall Flagg

    This is a good vid showing zeroing at different ranges with an AR15. Other than he zeros at the solar plexus, and not the belt buckle, pretty much the same as written in this post. Also, longest shot is 400yds.

    YMMV

    • Belt Buckle is best. It retains more meat above and below your point of aim. Giving you more room for error if you have bad breathing. Resulting in a hit on the Pelvis, Chest, Or Legs. Instead of a Chest, Maybe Head Maybe Miss, and Pelvis below. Plus, You can Always shoot again, You have 30 rounds.

      • Randall Flagg

        You may choose whatever P.O.A. you prefer out to 300 yards (e.g., belt buckle, center of chest etc), as the point of the video (and essentially the point of your post as well) was to illustrate what he refers to as the ‘combat effective zone’ and how that changes when zeroing at different ranges. In this particular video, using a 300-yd zero resulted in the smallest combat effective zone (~5 vertical inches) for all shots from 25-yds out to 300-yds which, if I’m reading your post correctly, is the zero you’re using as you say 300 yards is “dead on.” In that regard, one can see why the USMC chose a 300-yd battle zero.

        And yes, you can always shoot again. But my mags only hold 20. Grin.

        • A 300 yard Zero and a 25 yard zero is the same thing for a 5.56.

          The Marines currently use an ACOG which zeroes at 100 meters.

          And the last time I watched Marines shoot Iron sights out to 500 meters, I didn’t see them cranking clicks out on their Rear Sight.

          So by definition they are using this formula, and with an M-16 which is about 10-15% more accurate than the M-4.

          You should probably use this formula. It’s easy to remember and assumes a proper 25/300 meter NATO zero.

          This formula works for every 5.56 rifle, shooting nearly any 5.56 round except Subsonic, Using Iron Sights or Red Dots.

          • Randall Flagg

            When I mentioned that my mags only hold 20 rounds, I meant they were 7.62 and not 5.56.

            In this video, when he gets to the 300-yd zero target, he mentioned that he first zeroed at 36 yards. I thought he was implying that a 36-yd zero was the same as a 300-yd zero with 5.56 (M855 ball). However, dunno. I haven’t shot much 5.56 (read: hardly any at all). But I do have some old 25-meter targets for sighting in the M14 that I thought were also battle-zero 300-meters for M80 ball.

            And to be clear, I’m not at all dismissing your formula. If anything, this video reinforces it; the guy in the vid just uses a different P.O.A. It clearly works out to at least 400; after that, it is a bit of a guessing game with holdovers. But those come with practice. And once you get those down, it’s crazy how accurate someone can be with irons.

  15. The Usual Suspect

    Just get out there and do it, not rocket science.

    • Believe it or not. I know long distance Elk hunters who are not familiar with what a bullet is doing in the air. They just “Know” because their dad used a 7mm too.

  16. Red in OleVirginny

    25yd zero is excellent
    Close target/far target:
    When we look at a target with our Mk1 eyeball and can see any kind of detail, that is a close target.
    Details would be stuff like gender, hair color, hair style, general type of clothing (e.g. wearing a jacket or not), other equipment (e.g. backpack, rifle) etc..

    With a close target, we will aim at the hip(belt buckle), since generally the target will be within ~300 meters and our bullet will impact above the line of sight and thus somewhere on the torso.

    When we cannot make out any of those details and are just able to see a person, we have a far target.
    With a far target, we aim at the neck/head, since our bullet will impact below the line of sight – again, somewhere on the torso.

    The beauty of this is that we do not have to worry about the grey area between close and far targets.
    As we approach the end of close distance, our point of impact moves closer to our point of aim – we will still hit the hip or groin area.
    If we go to the far target hold too early, the bullet will not hit below our line of sight, but rather high on the torso or in the shoulder/head area – no big loss, is it?

    Basically, all we are doing is taking the Battlesight Zero concept and adding a single step of complexity: instead of always aiming at the center of a given target, we aim at the lower end of the target at close range and the higher end at long range.

    Next comes correction for wind.
    For a close target, we do not correct for wind at all.

    For a far target, we correct half the target´s width for weak wind. Weak wind is wind that can be felt on exposed skin, but will not significantly sway trees or make clothing flap about.

    According to the definition of weak wind, we now know what strong wind would be – anything noticeably stronger than weak wind.
    In strong wind, we hold a full target´s width into the wind, i.e. we imagine a “virtual twin” right beside our target and hold at its neck/head area.

    The shooting itself consists of two parts:
    The first shot is a carefully aimed single shot. If it hits and produces perceptible results, we can stop.
    If it does not produce results, be it from a miss or a bad hit, we change to what the Swiss call “rasches Einzelfeuer” – rapid semi-auto.

    Depending on our shooting position and distance, we shoot five shots at a steady rhythm of 1 to 2 rounds per second.
    We do not try to see bullet impact, we do not change our point of aim.

    The thinking behind that is this:
    If we missed our first shot (or had a bad hit), something went wrong. We could have misjudged distance or wind. Maybe we jerked the trigger or maybe it was something else.
    We do not know and we do not have the time to find out.

    What we try to achieve with our rapid follow-up is to increase our deviation just to the point where one of the shots we fire will cancel out our earlier mistake, but not so far as to miss the target completely.
    Once you have shot a few bouts of rapid semi-auto with tracer ammo, you get a pretty good feeling how fast you can go / need to go.

    Again, the trick is to not be too accurate (!) – if the miss was a result of a misjudgement, we will just put more rounds off target if we shoot to accurately.

    The Swiss army is taught to shoot this way (one aimed shot with eventual rapid-fire follow-up) at all distances.
    Depending on target exposure time, distance or movement, we might skip the carefully aimed shot and start with rapid semi-auto fire – our call.

    Putting it all together, let´s say we perceive a possible target.
    As we establish our shooting position, we go through the very short check list.
    Do we see details? – No. FAR target, neck/head hold.
    Wind? – Just a touch on the face from the right side: WEAK, HALF a target´s width into the wind.

    At the time we are content with our shooting position, we already know that we need to aim just above the right shoulder of the target – the process took us mere seconds (and can be practiced any time you go out for a walk…).

    And that´s about it…with a combination of stuff we most likely knew already, we can now produce hits on targets at 500-600 meters with any type of reticle and without any adjustments on our scope.
    I’ve used this to teach quite a few people and it works. I don’t claim it as original thought. Hope this helps someone.
    best Regards,
    Red in OleVirginny

    • A much more effective way to tell distance is to test Sizing Using the Front Sight Post or your Red Dot “2 MOA Dot”

      AR’s Front Sight Post is the Width of a man’s shoulders at 300 meters.

      If the front sight twice the size, The target is at 600.

      If the Red Dot is the same size as the target head, It is at 300 meters

      If the red dot is twice the size of the targets head, the Target is at 600 meters.

      Then just add alittle or subtract a little if the target is closer or farther, Fire 3-5 rounds center mass of your “Predicted Point of Impact” and Observe your target.

      Repeat as necessary.

  17. I’m very glad to see more cooperation amongst you guys about this, and other subjects. This is a damn good and proper part of the blog, kudos, CA. This kind of instruction and cooperation <the heartburn and butt hurt routine is the apex of good instruction. Always remember that less than ideal conditions are always to be found on whatever battlefield you find yourself on, and your ammo and your condition and anything else you can name will cause YMMV. Training and practice will be good friends to take with you.

    • This.
      Bringing back a bunch of memories ranging from Project SALVO, an engineering attempt to fix this, to long gone days of unlimited ammo and time to sort this out, including live fire, MILES, and Simunitions. Three shots work. Aiming low works, especially at night.

      Nothing new under the sun.

    • That is so very true.

      And things must be simply.

      In fact, If you read through my Formula and point out the spots on your abdomen, You basically “Call Collect” (Dial Down the Center)

      Once you point things out on your stomach and read the formula out loud a couple times, You will never forget it.

    • +10, Sean.

      Very little cockupsmanship and a lot of sharing that which we will need to win.

      Win what? That’s where all the disagreement begins……

      What the Hell, gotta WIN first.

      We now know The Enemy, and he is NOT us!

  18. This topic sure raised awareness for me. A TforD (trajectories for
    dummies) class – Thank Rockstar and CA for enhancing with comments.

    • I promise you 10/10 this works. I have taught cross eyed privates fresh out of boot to hit targets at 1,000 yards with a beat up M-4 and M855

  19. The Appleseed 11″X17″ is my back yard practice target.

    https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=v5imjeinro26bdbttnvm198bd5&action=dlattach;topic=9833.0;attach=84903

    I shoot it at 50 yards with a 4X optic.
    Move it out further for scoped bolt action.

    Last pdf file on the page.
    Lots more in this thread for reduced range practice.

    https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=9833.0

    • 50 yard Zero! NOOOOOOO.

      J/k 50 yard zero works fine, I use the 25 because there are so many other things that teach from a 25 meter zero and I keep it simple for the newer guys.

  20. Pedrothemerciless

    Ok, so much derp in all this… don’t listen to faceless web “gurus” or watch Youtube videos. Go train with someone reputable and you’ll get a clue. But for the 25yd zero – nice for CQB which civilians (the application we’re talking about right?) won’t be doing long cuz you’ll be dead quick. Do a CQB FOF (BTDT) at MVT for a clue.

    100yd Zero: Aiming at Upper-A-Zone (lethal area) will give you upper-A-Zone hits at 100, mid-A-zone hits (2.5″) inside 25yds and lower-A-Zone at 275 yds. That’s efficient. But again, your zero is irrelevant if you know and train your holdover/unders at any zero.

    Also, with most shooting positions (other than prone) you will struggle with L to R sight movement moreso, so this preoccupation with vertical targeting is moot without training/practice. Humans tend to move laterally when they’re trying to kill you, not up and down. Unfortunately, there aren’t many cost effective/available options for training to lateral target movement.

    • First of all.
      Every 5.56 has essentially the same flight path when fired through any AR or NATO style rifle. Its the same bullet. Even Match Grade. The only difference between match and military ball is the match has a tighter pattern. The flight patch is nearly Identical. It’s so similar that there is no point in mentioning the difference because people get confused and second guess themselves.

      I want shooters who believe in their weapon. I can use this trick with a 600 dollar Del-ton AR or my 3,000 dollar Noveske Match Grade. It’s all the same.

      Second of all, my system is significantly easier to remember. A la the barrage of thanks I am receiving and the one Camp Perry Dude that gave me a thumbs up.

      3rd, Delta Force taught me this at Range 37 during train ups for The Global Readiness Task Force Selection. I did not make the Starting Line. But I did make the 82nd Reject Team. Which was pretty fun and in many ways better.

      4th, I never bothered to mention “moving torsos” because your group is based on MOA; as in what the gun is mechanically capable of shooting at 100 Meters. If you are shooting and your torso is moving, You need more practice holding a weapon while panting during an adrenaline rush. And then you will learn it’s impossible to hold still, and a practical system you have faith in is best.

      Enter the Fly Formula.

      Sit down.

  21. While this guy (rs22) is at it, can you toss your insight / reason for a 100 m vs 200 m zero out side of jungle country? And even then still, why a 100 m zero. One still has holds for close range no matter what.

    • I believe you mean’t to type “300”?

      Regardless, A 100 meter/Yard zero on a bolt gun, and a 25 meter/yard zero on an Assault rifle or a battle rifle is best.

      All the targets, Lanes, Ranges, and most of the dope is already in all of these format. So why make things more complex for the sake of making them different?

      I bet your AR optic says “1/2 turn @ 25 meters” on the knob and I bet your Bolt gun’s scope says “1/4 turn @ 100 meters/yards” on the knob.

      Do not listen to tall tales from the guy at the range(Or Youtube) that brags about a “50 meter Zero” being “more accurate”. The Bullet drop never changes, and neither does the rifle’s accuracy; Those are constant values. What they are doing confuses people.

      Zero for 25 meters or yards, and this system will drop fools at 1,000 meters tomorrow. Assuming you can shoot a dime at 25 meters. If you can shoot a dime @ 25 meters, you can hit a target at 1,000 meters assuming you adjust your point of aim to account for the bullet’s drop.

  22. Thanks to all this is information that I can use and pass on to concerned individuals in my sphere of mutual education.

    • This works.

      Point to the points on you stomach while you read off the dope.

      Within a few reads and pointings you will have it memorized for life.

  23. The Usual Suspect

    I practice the Appleseed with a iron sighed CZ452,
    it ain’t easy !

    • The CZ is the gun to use. Amazing how Browning had it right; yet again.

      • CZ Handguns for me too.
        Only 500 rounds so far in November since getting it on the 2nd of the month.
        Picked up some 147 Federal AE flat nose to try next.
        147 Browning in the picture was soft shooting and more accurate than anything I have tried but Fiocchi 115.

        Need a P-01 for CC next.
        Have been CC a Tri-Star L-120 clone.

    • Thought you meant pistol. I assume you meant rifle.

    • They are fun.

      With a sling prone at 50 6X magnification 22 LR

      My HBAR needs a flash hider.
      Actually a different barrel would be better than the 1/9.
      It has a Leupold VX-R Patrol on it now and a quad rail. Geissele G2 trigger. Nothing too expensive.
      Would rather shoot. Have some steel for handgun practice now.
      Just trying for basic competence in them both.

  24. Enjoying this muchly. It is nice to see discussion of things that can be discerned by some realistic (and deceptively basic) thinking about the topic, so nicely distilled by RS22; thanks sir. Have previously applied this approach to an AR as well as my AK. (Different numbers on the latter, but extremely similar approach and at distances the Sov’s used to also advise sending 3-5 “out there”). It then simply gets into the “do” phase – and, for those that haven’t, it is incredibly confidence building & makes things much less about the hardware than what’s beween the ears. As Keith said, “the more I practice the luckier I get.” Do the above & the thing downrange is going to be a hurtin’ unit.

    Thanks again RS22 and CA for clearing him hot.

    • I have taught many men this system. And some of them made their bones. This shit really works and it’s my go to “Combat Head Dope”

      When you use an AK you make compromises. I personally believe the AR to be a superior rifle simple for the LOS and Bore Axis Offset. I think it lends itself to making quick shots and any distance much more simple.

      Inside of 300 you could hardly tell a difference between the two. But past 300 the AR is almost certainly king of the hill.

  25. You may not be regularly shooting at a target that is either above or below you. If that necessity does arise or you think it might it’s a good idea to have this tool (and the knowledge of its use):

    Sniper Tools – Angle Cosine Indicator
    http://www.snipertools.com/

    When in doubt ALWAYS give yourself an edge,
    preferably several edges!

    Yours in Daily Armed Liberty via anarchy!
    Northgunner III

  26. Alfred E. Neuman

    Reblogged this on FOR GOD AND COUNTRY.

  27. Hell, I shoulda’ made popcorn before reading this. Very entertaining.

  28. how close would this be/work for an AK? — relatively speaking