Thoughts On The Mentally Ill

From a reader:

Violence Risk Assessment: Safety vs. Liberty

These thoughts are a response to the recent school shooting in Broward County, FL. There is an issue of liberty that makes dealing with this situation a huge problem. So let us just imagine that someone ‘brings this guy in’ to talk about the youtube comment. They put that with all of the other contacts that the cops have had with him and realize he is a loose cannon. Then what? How do you propose that THE STATE respond?

Involuntary detention? For how long? For what SPECIFIC purpose? Current statutes say that if he is clearly suffering from a mental illness AND is imminently dangerous to himself or others, he can be held and involuntarily treated in a locked psychiatric facility. Of course many of you want to scream “Oh NOES! Psychotropics BAD!” and would not treat him. So then what? PERMANENT lockup? So someone’s fears lead to the removal of this individuals freedom / civil liberties?

‘But he is DANGEROUS’ and so this guy proved to be. What about the other hundred idiots that say this sort of thing but DON’T go on killing sprees? There are plenty of jerks on this site that make violent and threatening comments at times. So do you think they should get locked up? Where do you draw the line?

This is in the nature of man, and everyone tends to point fingers at the other guy. That may be fine if you simply choose to avoid that guy, but what if you want to restrict his liberty because of your fears? Isn’t this what the leftists are doing, want to take every man’s guns?

In the USSR they made use of psychiatrists to “diagnose” dissidents and lock the in their ‘psychiatric gulags’ which was in essence just a prison. If you don’t toe the party line, you get locked up. We hear the leftists continue to scream their desire to lock up people who oppose their views. There is so much discussion around here about the failure of the Constitution, or of the men responsible for upholding the Constitution, and yet there at least remain some elements of due process (obviously not always nor in every circumstance). Do you truly wish to further curtail civil liberties out of your fear of school shooters?

As our host can explain, the criminal justice system established a goal of preferring ten guilty men to walk free than one innocent man be incarcerated. Obviously this is a joke today, but just take this as a goal from the past. The legal standard in criminal trials is that the jury must find the defendant “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” which generally means >90% certainty. Otherwise they must acquit. In civil cases, the evidential standard is “the preponderance of the evidence” meaning 51%. It is a lessor standard because the idea of depriving someone of liberty has been viewed as a far greater intrusion than depriving someone of property.

Standards for involuntary psychiatric commitment are found in between these two. Courts have declared the standard to be “clear and convincing evidence” which is somewhere between the 51% and >90% for civil and criminal trials. The idea of taking someone’s freedom on a medical basis is viewed as greater violation than taking your property, but less than a criminal sentence. In theory, the psychiatric commitment is for a defined period of time or until the person is deemed no longer mentally ill and dangerous. In practice there are people who remain indefinitely committed due to perceived dangerousness.

Some years ago we began to understand that people who commit sexual crimes, ‘sex offenders,’ had very high rates of recidivism. Even after completing a criminal sentence they were still considered a high risk to repeat. And rightly so! Most people who commit murder do not ‘like’ killing people, it just happens in the heat of the moment or ‘as a part of doing business.’ So the recidivism in murder is quite low. But sexual offenders LOVE their crimes, they LIVE for the fantasies of both past and future offenses. To deal with this many states enacted ‘Sexually Dangerous Person’ statutes that allowed sex offenders to be locked up ‘for treatment’ after they completed their criminal sentence. This has been controversial because for many it turns into a life sentence in a secure psychiatric facility.

So with this information, let us return to the matter at hand. By what standard are you proposing to take away someone’s freedom, whether it be to buy/own a gun or simply the freedom to walk about in society? There are no perfect predictors of anything, especially human behavior. There is no “lab test” and even if there were, there are problems of false test values.

In medicine a “false positive” is a test that says you have the disease when you really don’t, and a “false negative” is a test that says you don’t have the disease, when actually you do. Labs set standards in an effort to try to optimize these values, but it cannot be done perfectly. So let us apply this to our goofy kid making threatening posts online. A “false positive” would be making the prediction that he WOULD commit a violent crime but in reality he never would or did. A “false negative” would be determining that he was NOT dangerous but he then went on to commit violence. The question is then asked: How do you set the standard for “locking up” potential mass murderers?

If you evaluate (do “the test”) in such a way that has a great many false positives, then far too many people are locked up who never would do violence. A real-world example of this might be the Social Services or Child Protective Services workers in your locale. Far too often they appear to remove children for little reason. Some of you have experienced this. So we don’t want this outcome.

But if there are too many false negatives, then the system is not ‘protecting’ us from the violent offender as he wasn’t detected. This maximizes liberty but increases your individual risk as a citizen.

Thus we arrive at the problem for a free society: do we wish freedom or security? Where do we draw the line? Who gets to make the choice?

Some years ago someone linked to an eye opening talk by Robert Higgs entitled “The State is Too Dangerous to Tolerate” which you can find here:

As I listened to him I understood quite clearly the point he was making and the application to such issues as the involuntary commitment of potentially dangerous people. There IS no perfect solution.

I am a Christian and see the world from a Biblical perspective. Mankind is fallen, we are rebels against God. The consequences of this are staggering, and such issues as safety vs. liberty can never be perfectly resolved. My hope is to help at least some of you to think more deeply about the issue of potentially dangerous people.

39 responses to “Thoughts On The Mentally Ill

  1. “I am a Christian and see the world from a Biblical perspective”

    and that is where you have failed to see things as they truly are..

    one word. DELUSIONAL

    • Please explain how increasingly refined cosmological data are consistent with geocentric creationism (a la Genesis 1), but larger-and-larger fudge factors and non-existent “dark matter” and “dark energy” must be invoked to feign rescue of the anti-creationist cosmological dogmas.

      Please explain how, instead of showing isotropy and homogeneity, COBE (1990), WMAP (2001), and Planck (2013) probes have incontrovertibly shown anisotropy and heterogeneity with three axes of symmetry all centered on Earth.

      While you are at it, please explain why, after two centuries of bluffing (and frauds like the Piltdown Man), we still have NO transitional fossil examples of one species becoming another species.

      • Al: You’re using some rather large words there for the tfat to comprehend. Granted, with all of his money, I’m sure he’ll just pay someone to explain it to him at the 4th-grade level.

      • Don’t waste your time on him or feed him. He’s just going to tell you to kill yourself. That’s his only response to disagreements.

      • Science does not know who or what created this universe, or what was before this universe, and neither does any religion. Maybe the starry backdrop is just the wall of the zoo cage. I have not seen a report that the microwave background appears to put Earth in a special postion. If there was a space dictator who ran a torture prison, he would need to be killed to gain human freedom. As for transitional fossils, you’re shifting the goalposts. Everytime a new transitional is found, you demand a new transitional next to that. That said, dna could have evolved outside the solar system and arrived on a meteorite, that gives bigger time and space for it to have evolved. Some microscope Earth animals, the Tardigrade, have been proven to survive space.

      • More to Al’s point:

    • You need to shut the fuck up, tfA-t.

      • You need to shut the fuck up Pat Hines.You,Al Licorce and your fellow jew hating,nigger killing wannabes are not entering into the kingdom of heaven. Your simplistic diatribes..Kill the nigger! Hate the jew!
        I may not agree 100% with tfa-t,yet he speaks with more honesty and candor than you and your boys who spew jew,nigger hate and dissension. He doesn’t attempt to tell everyone we are so weak and without thought of our own,we cannot escape the power of the hebes.Fuck you and your defeatist,pessimist attitude. You must be a real treat to be around.You were a nurse forced to treat everyone who came to you for help,yet you hated a large percentage of them . How many did you allow to die because of the hate you carry within you? How could you administer aid to those you despise and wish death and destruction upon without being a total hypocritical fucking douche bag?
        Maybe deep down you are lover of all men including the nigger and hebe. Oh fuck! That would make you a christian.Daily battles fought inside your poisoned cranium. Smart money is on The King of Hell ending up with your dark soul.

    • Yes, it is FAR more rational to believe that a physical universe created itself out of nothing (no matter, energy, space, or time… but you don’t know enough cosmology to understand that), that somehow magical bits of material just happened to come together in a “just so” Goldilocks world of incredible design complexity and just happened to glue itself together to make advanced life forms; that somehow physical matter can produce immaterial things such as morality (well, it is clearly you don’t believe in morality!) and consciousness. How do “IDEAS” spring from molecules in motion, anyway?

      I would prefer to be in the camp that is adequately described by the title of Frank Turek’s book: “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist.”

  2. Indeed.
    I do not want a government with the power to imprison people for “mental illness”. I dont want a government with the power to remove a mans rights simply because a witch doctor decided after a 10 minute interview that he was unstable and dangerous.
    If you think that is not happening, the other day a young man posted his prescription for Aderal on social media. He was prescribed it after a 10 minute meeting with a doctor who diagnosed him with ADD.
    Now that he has that diagnosis and prescription he can kiss a lot of his options goodbye. I know a young man denied entry into the Navy because of a similar situation.
    Expanding the definition of “mental illness” and demanding more controls being put into place to isolate and contain those with “mental illness” is a recipe for tyranny.
    How long before having a conservative opinion is considered a mental illness?
    Its already at that point from leftist social perspective, so how long until they get a clinical diagnosis?
    Then we will be in the position of defending our sanity by threatening to go on a national ethnic cleansing campaign. Yeah that sounds like a winning strategy!
    Stop worrying the Normies.
    Dont get into long debates about this. Just stick to the position that you dont have to justify anything. “No! End of discussion”

    Dont demand more mental health, demand less indoctrination in the school system. Demand less socialism in public education, for that matter demand LESS public education.
    Catholic schools teach Catholicism
    Jewish schools teach Judaism
    Baptist schools teach Baptism

    What do government schools teach?
    Governmentism

  3. Spot on and shared

  4. ssri’s and other mind altering drug “treatments” for kids are obviously not the panacea Pharma claim them to be. There are far too many links that this connection should not be thoroughly investigated and a decision of whether or not they should be used to “treat” (mask) anything.

    As for the security of the school, I find it ridiculous that better measures have not been put into place. After the Beslan massacre, every school in the world should have taken a serious look at security. After Columbine, many schools did change their security, why haven’t they all done so?? All of the schools that my kids have gone to were locked down during classes. You have to be buzzed in, you have to surrender your ID, and you need a clear purpose to be there, and you certainly are not carrying a guitar case or large dufflebag in. If you are just dropping off some paperwork, it gets slipped under a lexan window. Is that 100% failsafe? Of course not, but it is a start. There of course should be an armed response waiting inside as well, whether it is Armed Staff, Rent O Cops, or actual Police, the whole concept of “Gun Free Zones” is asinine. There is absolutely no reason that the treat of a Shooter Scenario should not be taken just as seriously as the threat of Fire.

    Again, nothing is 100%. Look how fast it took to reinforce aircraft cabin doors after 9/11. They work so well we haven’t had Terrorists storm a cabin and crash a plane since…. well except that one time they worked so well the Pilot couldn’t save the plane from a suicidal co-pilot that had been prescribed ssri’s.

  5. Let the test be when they attempt to commit a crime. Let it be when they’re standing at the scene of their crime, holding a loaded gun. Then if they survive being shot by armed teachers, parents, the principal, or a bystandard, they are guilty and need to be institutionalized for the remainder of their life.

    If they survive.

  6. Biblically, there are only two punishments.

    Punishment 1: Restitution to the injured party (not society). If restitution is not available then;
    Punishment 2: Death sentence.

    The “debt to society” concept is bullshit.

  7. Delusional would be a non-explanation of life and people based on nothing or on conjecture. In other words, it all came about and continues to evolve as a random chaos. Science cannot be explained absent Christianity, and Christianity cannot be explained absent Science. The delusion arrives absent both. I also see the world from a Biblical Perspective, but mine has a wrinkle. As soon as anyone, sane or not, can be determined guilty of something like this, they die that very day, expediently, and cheaply. No warehousing, no treatments, no rehab. Goes double for lying cops and/or district attorneys. Got a nutter on the radar? Conduct the investigation, test the person, and if they fit the nutter profile, no guns, ever. And let everyone in the community know he/she is a nutter. Allow for re-hearings and investigations per reasonable doubt. No system will ever be perfect. But this guy was running around in the open, declaring himself insane.

  8. Mountain Cracker

    “These comments brought to you by The Cult of Baby Jew.”

  9. Truly remarkable that all the first commenter can only give back to the author of this thoughtful essay is a handful of mud. Guess he/she must only know mud. Perhaps a bottom feeder?

    As for me, you have my thanks, essay writer.

  10. Come on tfA-t; tell how it really is. Let’s hear your delusional rant so we can compare lol. I personally thought it read out pretty well and have the same sentiments basically. You just read the words Christian and Biblical and got triggered, I do that sometimes too about certain things. I don’t see you arguing the content of what he said though.

    • tfA-t is OK. When I first came to WRSA, I used to slack-jaw tfA-t’s assertions, until I realized he’s right. If any one of you came into his money (per tfA-t,) however obtained, you’d do what he’s done. You’d have your “island” too. It just shows his savvy to today’s world.

      Thanks to CA for keeping this maniac online. Because this maniac is like all of us, yes, indeed, we’re all maniacs.

      tfA-t…I salute you. You, not believing, is your own business. Savvy.

      • Tfat helps me be a better Christian…He makes it so I live what Christ has taught and not just say I do…So for that I’m Thankful for Tfat and I still pray that he might come to know God’s Grace and Healing in his own life…

  11. I’m a Neo-Pagan Armed to the Teeth Witch and I see the world as it is without self-imposed blinders, including the idiocy that mankind is ‘fallen’…if you want your Bible, please by all means keep it, just don’t EVER think of making the mistake of attempting of coercing me into that form of mental collectivism in that regard..it will be very curtly rebuffed.

    As for us Pagans we DON’T prosletize or evangelize…it’s downright rude and just isn’t done.

    The Bible as a ‘manual for morality’?
    Let’s see an example of what a ‘moral hero’ like moses commanded:

    moses,..mohammed…same genocidal batshit crazy….just different “jim jones community organizer” motard cult leader/salesman.

     One man’s religion is another man’s belly laugh (until the brain-dead fucktard starts yowling that his ‘god’ demands the non-believer’s death).

    Brain dead religio-zombies run violently amuck?
    There’s a Fn-Fal .308 app for that!!

     Or plug the bastard between the eyes with a Webley Mk VI.

     Either way, a classic dispatch for two legged rabid religionists, regardless of its ‘creed’.

    Now that that’s been dealt with, how does one ‘deal’ with sociopathic and other violent folk in such a way as to NOT violate the Zero Aggression Principle let alone violate other individuals ‘Rightful Liberty’?

    The only way is to go about ones life awake and aware and armed and deal with them defensively when they violently act out and don’t immediately stand down. The biggest threat from such people isn’t from mentally deranged people like cruz, it’s from the narcissistic sociopaths that have banded together into the gang called ‘law enforcement’..the badged orcs and orcettes.
    They kill and maim far more people on a daily basis than most serial murderers.

    Ruby Ridge, Waco and Lavoy Finicum are the proof of that.

    Yours in Daily Armed Liberty via anarchy!
    Northgunner III

  12. Pingback: Daily Reading #24A | thinkpatriot

  13. 1)They are hypocrites,liars,alcolholics,womanizers,slovenly,covet their neighbors goods. Say an act of contrition,repent and they are good to go.
    2)Openly reject(like it is up to them) the kingdom of heaven to non-christians.
    3) Profess and declare hatred for many groups of humans even if they are “christians.” Place themselves as superior beings to all that disagree.
    4) Play the christian when it is convenient and beneficial to their interests.
    5)Quote and impart biblical verse and scripture to suit their agenda.
    6) Believe that God and Jesus have chosen their soiled and stained lives as a conduit for the word of god.
    7)Convey, the word of Jesus in a manner which is in direct opposition to his legacy and life. Use it as a weapon to subdue and restrain the heathens. Jesus’ true quote,”I never said that!”
    8)Ordained priests sodomizing and destroying boys. Draw and quarter the motherfuckers in the public square.

  14. As was pointed out in the article, the ‘mental health’ canard is a Proven Tactic used by the bolshevik ‘left’ to Eliminate those who Oppose >>>Their<<>>State<<< will Arbitrarily Deny our Rights.

  15. The mental health argument is just a stepping stone for them and if people are foolish they will let them put it in place…

  16. Security and Liberty increase or decrease together, they are NOT a tradeoff. Reason is that more liberty provides more physical options for security. The tradeoff idea is a lie promoted by would-be slavemasters or their unwitting dupes.

  17. Denninger weighs in on a head shrinker doc who says gun violence isn’t due to mental illness:

    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=233015

    ““The concept that mental illness is a precursor to violent behavior is nonsense,” said Dr. Louis Kraus, forensic psychiatry chief at Chicago’s Rush University Medical College. “The vast majority of gun violence is not attributable to mental illness.””

  18. I think one of the problems here is that the conservatives/ right wing/gun owning community – fails to acknowledge what the context was that “gun rights” existed in when the Constitution was written. I am no expert on this – but it is my understanding that ownership of weaponry has pretty much never been allowed freely in any Western society – without there being some corresponding *responsibility*. At the time of the Revolution – this responsibility was to serve in the militia. A lot of MEN had firearms – but they were also serving in the militia of their community. Serving amongst your fellow community members – meant that everybody likely knew who the nutbags were.

    So now we kept the gun ownership by fighting constantly against the leftists who would have likely taken it away completely decades ago. But we lost the militia – and with it the ability to organize legally to fight back against an overreaching government. The leftists will constantly say shit like: “There is no militia – therefore you don’t need your weapons” – which is pretty much the same thing as saying ” We stole your car – so there’s no reason for you to keep that set of tires and the steering wheel in your garage”.

    We’ve been in a perpetual argument over retaining ownership of those tires and steering wheels ever since – when we should have been discussing why we let them steal the car.

    I want the car back – because once I have it – the argument against having tires and a steering wheel get a whole hell of a lot harder to make.

  19. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5

    Let’s see, the shrinks are up to DSM-V. The DSM-V manual (used by shrinks to determine if you are mentally ill) is now up to 947 pages of “mental disorders.” And just WHO ultimately writes this beast of medical tyranny? A bunch of left wing psych “doctors” who think guns are bad, bad, bad. Sooner or later, if you even want to own a gun you will be diagnosed as a mental defective and given your SSRIs and a padded cell.

    Minimizing deaths at mass shootings:
    0. Unrestricted concealed and open carry nationwide.
    1. Eliminate gun free zones. A good guy with a gun is still the best way to fight psychos and bad guys. They are not necessarily the same thing. A good guy with a gun is NOT necessarily LEO’s.
    2. Arm the teachers (I’ve been advocating this for at least 10 years)
    3. Teach our children (boys and girls) to defend themselves with guns, knives and improvised weapons if need be and attack these psycho killers when they are tactically vulnerable… say during a reload. And by God teach them the difference between cover and concealment. The earlier in their life that they are taught this, the better.
    4. Teach your wives and girlfriends… see paragraph 3.

    /r
    Grey Ghost

  20. There is very little capacity in the mental health hospital system. Most of the mental health hospitals were sued in 70s and 80s and required to either meet standards they couldn’t afford or shut down. They shut down and the people that used to treat rolled over to the prison system for various petty crimes. Most states have a few low security yards or Community security yards for dealing with these people, as well as a segregated section of a medium yard for dealing with the more dangerous mentally ill. Just because we ignored it doesn’t mean it went away.

  21. From a related post:

    “Al LIguori on February 19, 2018 at 01:43

    Correction. Should read: “Heretical Catholics, anti-Popes, Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, and the rest of the synagogue of Satan do not accept the teachings of Christ.”

    Being “lapsed” is not necessarily a rejection of Christ’s teaching.”

    So, what you’re saying is the old, “me and my brother against the world” bullshit.

    Not an iota of difference from the rabid inbred ignorant moslems that desire to destroy Western Civilization and institute a religio-political dictatorship worldwide.

    The only difference that I can see is that you haven’t thrown what little intelligence and common sense you still possibly have away and haven’t gone “sudden jihadi” for the Christian God…yet.

    My advice,…get some help while you can and stay the fuck away from any psychotropic “meds” as those WILL slingshot an already unstable mentality completely into the abyss of insanity.

    In point of fact, one taking a rigid fundamentalist dogma to the exclusion of all else IS a very dangerous form of insanity.

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/uploads/2015/06/suicide-bombing.jpg?itok=RnWgegqY

    Oh and for the record, we Pagans and Wiccans have NOTHING to do with your imaginary anti-god satan…what and how we believe and worship has existed as a form of belief BEFORE the Babylonian talmudic “god/anti-god” mental dung ball even got rolling..say about 35,000 years before there were any Scooby Jooooo’s around for you to blame.

    Your God/anti-God only exists between your eardrums..just like the Goddesses and Gods that I believe in…it’s belief that makes them real for us both.

    They don’t ask or demand that I hate anyone. My hatred of islam/moslems is solely my own given a full understanding of ‘mo’s death cult.

    We on this earth can choose to live and let live and live in peace, or war incessantly like savages.

    Fwiw, there also won’t be any “Burning Times” happening in MY ao as my Fn-Fal will directly veto that proposal with zero debate or fucks given!!

    The choice is yours.

    Yours in Daily Armed Liberty via anarchy!
    Northgunner III

    • ^—- Now there is some bat-shit craziness.

      • Bonehead, you are the fucking idiot he is talking about. Bat shit my ass. Spot on fucking right. 308 therapy. You,Al Licorce,Hines and Haxo goose-stepping your way into the abyss. Reminds me of Dutch,smoking cigarettes while on oxygen. You cannot spew venom and hate while quoting scripture. Oxymoron.
        The debate about being a free man, is a debate not be insulted by a tired re-hash of biblical rhetoric. Organized religion is not a freedom mechanism…it is a control mechanism. You have been given your bible and made your bed. Now,sleep in the fucking thing.

        • When four-letter words are one’s adjectives, adverbs and nouns, along with a vocabulary consisting of less than 250 words, it makes it difficult to get one’s point across. But such is the primitive, intemperate man.

          As for this “goose-stepping” and spewing “venom and hate while quoting scripture…,” I have no idea what you’re talking about. Please cite where I have done that. I am not Haxo. I am not Al. Don’t confuse me with the two.

  22. I’m just over hear like “when’s Rod Serling gonna chime in this thread?”

    Shit flinging universe vs. potentially rational discussion of.
    Math wins.
    God wins.

    We all get the same trophy on this plane.

    Bosnia x Rhwanda.
    Playground beefs notwithstanding.

  23. DWEEZIL THE WEASEL

    This circular firing squad is generating a lot more heat than light. We should all remember the two principles of Natural Law: 1) DO ALL YOU HAVE AGREED TO DO. 2) DO NOT ENCROACH ON THE PERSON AND/OR PROPERTY OF ANOTHER. Any individual or group who violates these two principles is outside of the fundamental law of society. And, we have a natural right to defend against them.
    I care not what their religion, ethnic heritage, economic level, occupation or race may be. Any physical harm brought to me, my family, or any other innocent human being in my care will be dealt with immediately. We are getting too close to the tipping point/trigger effect, or whatever you want to call it. Get prepped and share what you know. Belib ubrig.