Milliradians & You

This material will be on the final exam.

Best to start working with the tools.

Tempus fugit.

39 responses to “Milliradians & You

  1. Excellent read and material. Thanks for the link CA!

  2. Bonaventure

    6.5 CM? Pfft…. Go ahead… if you want to get all new brass that won’t work with .308, 7-08, .243.

    Or, just get the even better .260 Rem.

    • If you have a ton invested in .308, 30-06 or whatever, stay with it. The Creedmoor is better than any save the .260 (and they are almost equals) and is available everywhere now. If you are buying a long range system, and the requisite match and hunting ammunition plus reloading supplies why not go with the superior cartridge? If you plan on using cheap .308 at long distance you will be disappointed every time. If you’re going with match ammo, it doesn’t make any difference in price or availability.

      • I snagged a Ruger GS Scout in 6.5 CM, couldn’t resist. I’ll be setting it up for some long range work, but not exclusively. Ruger sends the same magazines for this rifle as they send with the .308 versions.

        Match .308 and match 6.5 Creedmoor run close to or the same price per box. While I agree that the 260 Remington is a fine cartridge, the ammo is almost non-existent locally, and limited by mail order. Too bad, that.

        Now we have the 6.5 PRC which exceeds the older 6.5 Remington Magnum in velocity (slightly) and availability. Remington stopped loading the 6.5 Mag a number of years ago and they were the only source. Hornady is loading two different 6.5 PRC rounds, interesting.

        • Bonaventure

          While I agree that the 260 Remington is a fine cartridge, the ammo is almost non-existent locally, and limited by mail order.

          I wouldn’t know as I’ve never bought a box of commercial ammo for any of my rifles. Learn to roll your own and the sky is the limit. And much cheaper in the long run. Both the 6.5 CM and .260 Rem shoot the same 6.5mm bullets, which are easy to get from various manufacturers (e.g., Lapua, Sierra, Berger, Hornady, Nosler).

      • Bonaventure

        What is widely available today may not remain so in the future. The 6.5 CM does not have anything close to the track record as .308W. The .308W is ubiquitous, and will remain so in the foreseeable future. Military brass is easy to get, so load up on it. Then, all one needs are the dies, bullets, primers and powder (the latter two being useful in several calibers), and you can load for your rifle regardless if it is .308W, 7mm-08, .260R, .243W or 22-250R. The same can not be said of 6.5 CM as it uses a different diameter case. Load up on enough components, and it will matter not if the stores’ shelves go empty.

        As for match ammo, have never wasted my money on it; have always rolled my own for the specific rifle with quality components. Again, from that standpoint, .260 stands out over 6.5 CM.

        If you plan on using cheap .308 at long distance you will be disappointed every time.

        Are you talking about match conditions, where tenths of inches count, or real-world conditions where minute-of-deer (or minute-of-man) counts? If the latter, the .308W has a rather decent track record, but YMMV.

        That being said, I have sub-MOA rifles in .30-06, .308W, .260 Rem and 22-250 Rem. Yes, I broke my own rule when it comes to keeping things simple and to a single caliber. However, sans the .30-06, all the rest use essentially the same case, and if I’m stocked up on .308W cases, I can use those to load all the rest.

        So again, in the 6.5mm category, the .260 Rem should be the choice over the 6.5 CM.

      • Johnny Paratrooper

        The Army uses the 7.62×51 LR…

        All Day…

        For Decades…

        They are literally shooting targets right now in the snow.

        I bet you $100.

        Obviously there are better platforms(And Weapons)

        But the .308 works well.

        Especially @ 200ish meters.

        Holy shit does it work well.

        • Bonaventure

          Yup. The M118LR is a great round. It’s what I try to duplicate for my .308W rifle with 175 SMK’s.

          But 168’s aren’t bad either; everything within 600 yards, no problem.

          • M188LR is crap. I have watched some of the best shooters in the world try to hit stuff with it at 1K, with several different rifles. It’s all over the place, 7’s and 8’s on the NRA LR-F target. If someone gave me any M188LR I would sell it immediately to someone who thought it was good ammo. There are so many better alternatives. OMG it’s crap. CRAP.

  3. Grey Ghost

    Yeah, well, I jumped on the 6.5 CM well over a year ago and it really is that much better especially when adjusting for winds. And the “Christmas tree reticles” really do make for an accurate and quick followup shot though some of the others do too. JMO, but if you are going for a long range kill, 2 shots would be max before you’d want to exfil or move. Am I giving away my 7.62×51 kit? Not on your life.

    Been using the mildot master for several years now. Never leave home without it. IIRC U.S. Tactical Supply carries them too.

    Grey Ghost

  4. Totally worthless to the AR15 shooter. The average range to contact for the mag dump crowd is 30 to fifty feet. Only one in about 2000 shooters can hit anything at ranges above 300 yards. Kind of like the silly bastards with a 40x mil dot on a semi auto .30 cal. with a ten inch tube. Most scopes are on rifles as trophy’s. The guys who own them haven’t a clue, or the skill to use them at anything like real “long range”. Get a good .30 cal. battle rifle. Learn to hit a man size target out to 300 yards 100% of the time with iron sights. Them work on hitting that same man size target out to 500 then 600 yards WITHOUT OPTICS. Learn to shoot a real battle rifle, the right way. Then if you have any real skill (and most of you won’t) you can work on that 1000 yard sniper thing. Until then get a real combat rifle, designed to kill at ranges above 300 yards (not 5.56) and learn to shoot it. Remember that Stoner designed the M-16 with a 20 inch tube to have a killing range of 300 meters or less. They are not “battle rifles” and never were. They were the USAF replacement for the M1 carbine.

    • You must not have read the article. It is not intended for the AR15 shooter and I state plainly that most shots will be under 50 feet. This is a different skill set, and one that may never even be needed.

      While shooting with irons is a legacy skill, those stuck in this thinking that optic’s are a weakness are fooling themselves. You keep hitting man sized targets to 300 with your “real battle rifle” like I do with my 10.5” AR with a dot and irons.

      Meanwhile, those who are looking toward being better in every discipline are actually getting out there and making hits at 700 to 1200 with regular practice.

      The SR25 is a battle rifle whether in .308, 6.5C or whatever cartridge it is chambered for.

      Read it this time and get back to me.

    • Johnny Paratrooper

      You are wrong on all counts.

      Sometimes more than once in the same sentence.

      Please, Stay on the bench.

      The Varsity team will take home the title.

  5. lastmanstanding

    Good info, thanks brother.

    As an instinctive shooter, I will be picking up one of those slide-rule thingy’s.

    Shit, we used to use the ballistic coefficients on the box or in the sales literature as a kid. All we had to shoot long range. All we wanted to do was kill a deer clean. Loss of an animal was completely unacceptable. Our rifles were deadly accurate.

    I like no track-able tech, slow drag.

  6. robroysimmons

    I would say Ray has a point, FreeFor as presently constructed is mainly composed of people who could not run a break contact drill or conduct a hasty assault first because they are out of shape secondly they shoot off a bench and only talk tough about gunz on the net.

    So this leaves FreeFor mainly as one shot wonders, a Ruger American in any old special snowflake caliber with a 100 dollar Chinamart scope will be enough equipment. One shot lead sponges.

  7. Alfred E. Neuman

    Reblogged this on FOR GOD AND COUNTRY.

  8. Never really did much with scopes. Mostly iron sights.
    Definitely useful information for me being wet behind the
    ears on this subject. Thank you.

    By the “Way”, do enjoy your Chambers posts on Biblical

    A few months ago I did help a friend zero in his scope for
    a pellet rifle to shoot rats in his backyard.

  9. singlestack

    I got a Mil Dot Master at the same time I got my mil dot reticle scope.
    To learn ranging with it, and for practice, I made several poles with stands, 6 feet tall and painted them alternating black and white in 1 foot increments. I attach a 6 foot piece of suveyor’s tape to the top to indicate wind.
    I place these at various distances on our 500 yard range along with a 2 ft x 2 ft piece of cardboard as a laser target.
    I calculate the range using my scope and Mil Dot Master, and verify it with my laser rangefinder. I also use a Dwyer wind meter (non electronic) for doping the wind.

  10. Point of clarification:

    In paragraph 7, “so the reticle is true regardless of power setting.”

    Doesn’t concur with “remember that the scope must be turned to the correct magnification” in the coyote example.

    The second quote would only be applicable in a 2nd focal plane scope, yes?

    • Correct, a 2nd focal plane scope can accurately range at one magnification, usually maximum magnification. The coyote example is a picture and I did not create it, it was made in reference to a 2nd focal plane optic.

      A FFP optic to me is much preferred, when you are dealing with a 6-24 power optic for example, you may prefer 10x for a shot and knowing your reticle is true at any magnification matters.

  11. I have been working with the Swiss K-31 when I finished with my mount design. It’s my go to bolt gun, I plan on re-barreling one in 308 soon. I have done one in 260 Remington it’s a one hole wonder but to heavy. I have designed a 10 round mag that works good with the 7.5 and 260. My scopes are Shepherd 310- P2 BDC out to 1000 yrds. This scope is also good with 7.62×54. The shepherd scope is fast and makes the range finding easy. Just need to work the wind. I have used both of mine from the early 90s

  12. In the opinion of those that actually pull triggers on a regular basis, is MOA still a viable option? At 44 years old, I’ve been using and thinking in MOA for years. I’m not good at math, and my eyes start to glaze over at the thought of learning a whole new system.

    • Read the article from Frank at Snipers Hide. He is an award winning competition shooter and a marine sniper who has forgotten more about this discipline than most know. MOA came about when all scopes had duplex reticles and people needed a way to correlate misses to adjustment.

      Milliradians are based on 10, the math is easy, a Mil-dot Master makes it child’s play and yes, you can switch and learn it easily. Ranging, while being handled by electronics mostly now, is the main reason to switch. As I said, guessing wrong in range at 700 will miss by 5 feet with a .308.

      The best reticles are available in mils as well….

  13. Actually Lawless I have ONE rifle with a scope. It is set up as a 300 meter stalking rifle. For almost anything I’ll ever hunt it will normally stay in reserve. My stalk will be at 250-500 yards. With no reflection to give up my position. I do see optics as a crutch for anyone who does not have the skill set to make that long shot. AND: for anyone that thinks optics give some kind of magic advantage I would mention Shimo Haya (spell?) a sniper and hunter who killed more than 750 men, almost half of them trained snipers, and never used a scope at all. It is the man that kills. Not the weapon. (Haya (spell?) said in his biography that he actually killed more than 1500 Russians ,but could only recover the ID tags from 750.) Shooters today have become over dependent on tech. To the point where they really don’t know how to shoot without it. When the 5th Marines met the German army for the first time in 1918. They shocked the Germans to the core by killing them at 600 to 800 yards with M1903 rifles. They did that over iron sights, because they were well trained marksmen. This was not a few Marines who were the best shots. This was EVERY Marine. Expected to qualify by putting 3 out of five aimed shots into the killing zone of a man size target at 800 yards and given a rifle that would do that every time. “Modern” is not automatically “better” .

    • Do you still use a 1903 Springfield? How about horse and buggy? Do you wipe with a corn Cobb? All of these things have worked in the past, why did we change what we used?

      If you really think you can outshoot a intermediate level rifleman who has a rifle with a magnified optic with your iron sights, you are a fool.

  14. Johnny Paratrooper

    Good information on all counts. Although, this is the hard way to shoot someone and measure something.

    With Practice, You will eventually not even need to adjust anything once you are dialed in.

    I personally hate turning knobs and dials and keep my stuff set where its gonna stay.

    2 MOA is a mil-dot if I recall correctly.

    That means that someone is at 100 meters if their Eyeball is the same size as the Mil-dot.

    200 if its the size of their chin.

    300 if its about the size of their face(with or without helmet doesn’t matter)

    400 if its half the size of their chest without shoulder.

    500 if its the size of half their chest with an arm/shoulder

    600 if its a little bigger than half their chest plus shoulder.

    700 If its the size of their whole chest

    800 if its the size of their chest and shoulders.

    900 the complete chest and shoulders

    1000 is a little bigger than chest and shoulders.

    This formula works with a standard ISPC target(For smaller sized people) or you can buy some of those cardboard “Human Sized with Vitals” targets and use those. They are about 5 bucks a piece, but can be reused A LOT.

    Anyway, I hope this helps for On The Fly Shooting.

    I can shoot from 100-1000 yards/meters and make first/second round hits with ZERO adjustments to my optical equipment.

    If you don’t believe me, I can show you(In Person).

    • Johnny Paratrooper

      I forgot to mention bullet Drop.

      You should know your round.

      But even if you don’t, The speed of a round determines drop.

      It has nothing to do with the size of the bullet or what caliber you use.

      It’s only the speed that matters.

      Once you memorize where to hold on a round that travels 3000 FPS

      The drop formula works for EVERY SINGLE round that travels plus/minus 3000 FPS.

      Obviously, the design of the round is important, but those standards are long since past.

      Our equipment is better than any other military, militia, or police force in the entirety of history.

      They already did all the hard work.

      Just hold it high(or a little higher), and let’em fly.

      • This is utter nonsense. “The speed of the round determines drop for every round”

        Are you freaking kidding?

        Ever hear of BC? Ballistic coefficient?

        A .308w shooting a 168 ELD @ 2700 FPS drops 361” at 1000 yards.

        A 6.5C shooting 147 ELD @ 2695 FPS drops 299” at 1000 yards.

        The difference? BC. The cartridge with the higher BC will drop less, is less affected by wind and will stay supersonic longer.

        Let’s use your 3000 FPS rule and see.

        A .308w 130g federal vital shock at 3050 FPS drops 530” and is only going about 900 FPS at 1000. The 6.5C starts out at only 2695 FPS but is still trucking at 1565 FPS at 1000 yards. In fact, at 2000 yards the 6.5C is still flying along at 950fps.

        Your utter lack of understanding is showing.

        One other thing, using the dot, on a mil dot reticle to range is the most ignorant thing I have ever read.

    • I like the mildot cheat. Thanks.

      • Johnny Paratrooper

        I am second guessing this.

        My sizes are off. I have a Mil-Dot @ 200 for size of the chin.

        I am not sure about this anymore.

        I must be wrong.

        Or that chart is off. Which is not likely because that looks correct.

        Perhaps I used a different power scope.

        I am not 100% sure anymore.

        But I bet $20 bucks I make the shot. I just don’t remember any more.

        I do know this. I just dropped $250 bucks on ISPC silhouettes and some Long Range Shoot and See targets.

        Plus $1,000 on a Spotting Scope, Tripod, and American Made Laser Rangefinder.

        So there’s that.

        • lastmanstanding

          What till you get old.

          Every time I send a round, the thought goes through my head… this one has to count.

  15. The circles are 18” at all powers. You just center the shoulders to get the range, also it’s a one shot zero.
    This video is old but shows how effective the range finder works.

    Shepherd Scope 1000 Yard Shot